Inclusive Ceremony of Remembrance (/“Secularisation Thread”)

Thank you found the reference in ACP20 :slight_smile:

Interestingly it’s not in the volunteer code of coduct in acp20.

As a RAFAC Volunteer you must not:

• Act fraudulently or dishonestly.
• Engage in behaviour or conduct which undermines trust or creates division.
• Act in a way that breaches RAFAC policies or do anything which brings, or is likely to bring, RAFAC into disrepute or draw into question the good name of the RAFAC.

So good news they are removing mentions of religion from air cadet policy - it’s just it’s being removed from code of conducts :slightly_smiling_face:

So whilst cadets cannot promote, staff can provided it does not undermine trust or creates division.

In short it is not a breach of policy encouraging cadets to attend church parades. :slight_smile:

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It is in ACP 20 for staff, just not directly under CoC. For example, here:

Here:

And here:

(Note the yellow highlighting is only because I was searching for that word!)

Interestingly, CIs is only whilst on ATC duty, rather than RAFAC duty. So A CI helping a CCF can crack on, according to that policy :stuck_out_tongue:

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Thank you :slight_smile: I was surprised I couldn’t find it but I am searching using a mobile :slight_smile:

I do note the specific use of the word own though so RAFAC sanctioned beliefs are perfectly acceptable to promote :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

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I’m not so sure about that. The God of the Abrahamic religions’ name is YWHW / Yahweh, which is usually rendered as LORD in English translations. God is more of a pronoun.

This is where we’ll disagree.

It’s my country just the same.

This idea that we’re not being forced because we don’t have to join in is nonsense.

Bringing one’s private religious beliefs into the public sphere is the definition of forcing it upon other people.

And if I’m going to be criticised for simply reading the vanilla version for all, but you don’t understand the problem with weaving one’s personal religious beliefs into the very fabric of a public event and expecting non-believers to stand there politely while you do so, you’re displaying a very clear double-standard.

Edit: I didn’t scrap the national anthem as it’s never been a feature at our event, but I do find it incredibly alienating. A national anthem should at minimum not alienate swaths of the country.

I never sing it because I can’t possibly mean it.

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But isn’t this what you are doing?

The impression you have given in your posts is someone very strong in their humanist faith & who believe passionately in the need for secularism at all levels, that it is the “gold standard” & that it us the purest way to equality.

I don’t disregard or degenerate your faith - far from it I admire what you are trying to do & it has given me pause for thought & left me pondering how we can ensure our events our more inclusive & sympathetic.

However my base philosophy is that you cannot be inclusive by being exclusive.

Humanists uk state that humanists are

people who shape their own lives in the here and now, because we believe it’s the only life we have We make sense of the world through logic, reason, and evidence, and always seek to treat those around us with warmth, understanding, and respect.

& yet there isn’t much logical reasoning on this thread. Or even something that takes into account the human sciences of psychology or sociology addressing the way that people behave particularly with tradition and the familiar “ritual” that they went through with their grand parents.

There is a lot of extrapolation false equivalence fallacies & logical flaws. Ready acceptance of evidence or supposition that supports a particular viewpoint & rejection of those that may counter it.

the religious bits have become less religious even though they haven’t changed & more part of the familiar. When I singing in the car in the way to work
“ Country roads, take me home; To the place I belong”

I’m not claiming I’m from West Virginia nor that’s it’s only bout the price tag, or it’s like a little prayer or we Don’t stop Believing.

It’s a song whose melody that’s enjoyable singing & the group activity helps bring us collectively together.

I’m not playing devils advocate here - as any good researcher will tell you, the evidence you uncover that goes against or counters the conclusion you desire is just as important as the evidence that supports it.

So what evidence have you uncovered in your research counters your position?

Do the people local to you actually want it? Have you asked them?

Do they agree or do they politely smile &nod, humouring you or even perhaps quietly quitting until you move on - something that all volunteers must do eventually.

In short how do you know you are doing the right thing & would it be accepted as doing the right thing by the majority of others.

Whilst your quest for equality of faith is admirable, if it is the wider society you wish to influence it is not something you are going to be able to achieve effectively whilst volunteering within RAFAC or even as a reservist.

As much as it may pain us, as volunteers we are unfortunately not that important, certainly not as important as we like to tell ourselves or like ourselves to be & are sadly are easily replaceable.

At present time there are just more pertinent debates such as “should fieldcraft be part of the Air Cadets” & what is the ethos of the RAF we should be teaching rather trying to change the culture of whole nation overnight instead of a couple of centuries.

Creation & building is always preferable to destruction & removal.

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You seem to be implying that, from your POV, the only way to be inclusive would be to have a faith leader from every single religion at every single event? That isn’t what inclusivity is about.

An event that is fundamentally Christian will naturally exclude those who are Muslim or Jewish. By naturally exclude, I mean the other religions wouldn’t exactly feel comfortable. I wouldn’t expect a Muslim to be comfortable having to attend a church service talking referencing Christianity, singing Christian hymns and saying Christian prayers. In the same way I wouldn’t expect a Christian to be comfortable having to attend a Mosque for a similar service, but with Islamic prayer etc.

If you create a service absent of religion, then everyone can feel welcome.

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Yes, no kinda.

We tried have the different faith leaders at remembrance, it worked but it made it quite long so much so the other faiths were asking to just have the Christian bit & crack on.

I think a couple of things to guide are

  • humans have a natural spirituality that needs acknowledgment particularly at times of collective gathering & reflection.

  • fundamentalism (the belief that only a very specific philosophy/theology is acceptable) is the least inclusive way forward.

A lot of the issues are discussed regularly at inter faith forums. The way we have found to do things locally (which has a large number followers of faiths other than Christianity) is that the traditional faith leads but acknowledges the other faiths & ensures things such as readings or hymns are not controversial to the other religions.

We also do this for the towns Diwali & Eid celebrations and it works & everyone feels included even the chap from SWP who joins causes at a drop of a hat & likes getting into debates with the cadet forces on armed forces day & occasionally poppy collecting (he wears the white poppy & thinks that there should be no uniforms at remembrance as it undermines the purpose of the day)

This is my general opinion & experience & importantly I could be completely & utterly wrong.

But If I have done wrong right in a thoughtful & respectful way then it’s just all a bit silly & it’s not hurt anyone.

It’s why it’s always important to consider “what if I am wrong” as otherwise you become narrow minded and only selecting the information that supports your own biases. This way leads to self isolation & echo chambers & ceasing to be a force for good.

The weak argument against inclusivity is “where do you draw the line?”

The better argument in support of inclusivity is “why do you need to draw a line?”

humans are complex people, you include people by respecting & acknowledging their individuality & not (in my opinion) by putting them all in the same generic box. :slightly_smiling_face:

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There is a very simple example of logical reasoning at the core of this entire thread.

The way to include is to focus on what unites us. Our shared purpose for being members of this organisation, or our shared purpose for meeting on Remembrance Sunday.

To include things we disagree on at a fundamental level is to sew division into the fabric of our organisation.

For Remembrance, I’m happy to keep the religious elements separate and optional (as long as going to them remains a genuine option, without unrealistic barriers like having to change out of uniform, go off duty and receive less pay, etc).

What I’m less happy about is the wider discussion about taking away the traditional oaths and holy texts and forcing the godless affirmation on everyone. After all, this isn’t France!

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And to be clear, I certainly don’t think you’re wrong! This is clearly an opinionated and emotive subject where by I don’t think there is a ‘wrong’. Open and sensible debate is a good thing, for everyone!

I’d give a more substantial response, but I’m now very preoccupied by this.

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On this:

  1. You’re misusing spirituality in a way that leans towards a supernatural tendency. I can experience a sense of awe, emotion, and togetherness, but to claim “spirituality” is ubiquitous is not correct.

  2. In this context, it feels like you’re conflating my position with fundamentalism, while ignoring the fact I remove my humanist beliefs (not faith) just the same as everyone else’s.

As a general point, my lack of belief in someone else’s world view is not comparable to the actual holding of my own set of beliefs.

I think this is where parades differ between towns.

Ours is open air, in the morning at 11am with no church element although led by the RBL C of E chaplain.

I would be a bit uncomfortable with an inside place of worship aspect which I know is more common with afternoon remembrance parades.

If nothing more on practical grounds that a closed building has a fixed capacity & you auto exclude purely on building size.

ATC Sunday & particularly Battle of Britain I struggle with because locally they are more building focused than the open air parade focused.

Disestablishmentarianism is a complex debate in itself

There’s a default acceptance that religion has a place here that skews the debate though.

In the course of our duties, we do things like affirm that we have checked IDs, certify a passport photo is a true likeness, or confirm that we know an individual in a certain capacity. These are all things that depend upon us being true to our duties etc and would have serious consequences if we lied.

But it’d be really weird to suddenly request the use of religious oaths in place of the secular (read “normal every day language”) version we currently use.

If we all presently said the same, secular words on joining the cadet organisation and someone tried to insert religious alternatives, I think this would be a very different conversation.

But “tradition” is an entirely separate argument that actually has nothing to do with the practicality of the promise or affirmation.

I appreciate that lines are becoming very blurred now because we’re actually talking about a few nuanced topics as though they are one.

Apologies I was talking in general terms to JBs post rightly asking me to clarify.

I think we have to be careful on language particularly with the word “fundamental”

As it can be use in the context of “at a base level” or (particularly with religion) “specific religious doctrine”

The later usage I would treat as exclusionary as it does not allow for the acknowledgement of other belief systems (?)

I don’t think I am but that might be my communication. Spirituality is that definition of oneself and our connection with others outside of ourselves - it goes right into the deep philosophical pit of who are we, are we a brain in a jar & how do we connect,

why does life and why do we have value?

It doesn’t have to be supernatural- it can be explained by the emotional hormones released when we see a familiar non threatening face giving us a biological advantage to survive. But it’s that connectedness & why do we do o things for others & not purely self.

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An interestingly both these examples will be different for every individual person both in volunteering for the ATc & Remembrance Sunday.

The reasons will not be the same & can be a sources of division particular with the former.

I think this is natural convergence but it’s been interesting that such an emotive & personal subject has kept going for so long in a (in general) respectful manner.

My bold - That’s either an auto correct typo or very clever pun & allegory! :slightly_smiling_face:

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I’ve realised I communicated poorly.

The word I was looking for was “connotation”.

Spirituality used as a word to define what you talk about here has an unhelpful connotation.

I am often frustrated when some people try to imply my humanist world view is just as spiritual or faith-based as religious world views (when a core aspect of my world view is that I value an empirical underpinning for things I accept as true).

So I find “spirituality” to be an unhelpful word because it feels like it robs the things it labels of their perfectly naturalistic explanations.

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I think this very common experience amongst those with a solid self-defined belief system. So for example how many times do Christians have a random passage from the bible quoted at them implying that they must believe X,Y,Z when a lot of Christians eschew literal interpretations of the bible.

I would suggest though that if someone of deep faith places your humanist world view on a par with their own religious faith then is probably a respectful compliment rather than an attempt to undermine or dismiss your views. It is an acknowledgment & acceptance that your world view is just as a valid as theirs.

Having said that there are always those more interested in tearing down different peoples belief system regardless of its bases.

I think a ted lasso quote is the most apt when discussing different faiths & belief systems -

People should remember to be curious & not judgmental. :slightly_smiling_face:

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