Being over 30 (significantly over 30) but less than 50, I find myself in a bit of quandry as to how long I should plan to continue as uniformed staff in the ACO. My reasons for taking up a commission in the first place revolve around wishing to try to give to cadets what uniformed staff gave to me when I was a cadet. However, I also would not want to be standing in front of a squadron of 12 to 20 years olds telling them how or what to do when I am too many generations away from them.
I would like to ask what is the general perception of how old is too old? I understand that the age out for VRT used to be 55. I know of at least one currently serving officer who retained their commission, transferred to another wing and gained another Squadron command at between 55 and 60. Bearing in mind that the ACO line on a Sqn command is normally 4 years, that person would now be in their very late 60ās and remains in command ofr a squadron with extension of service taking them to almost 70.
I am also aware of a different squadron where the OC is in his 70ās. With the current exodus of uniformed personnel, does anyone think that Sqn Commanders in their 60ās and 70ās are generally a good idea. I appreciate that some on here will know people who do a brilliant job, are supremely fit and the cadets might respond really well to them despite being well passed state retirement age. However, how to we encourage our staff cadets to progress into uniform, recruit adult staff in their 30ās and 40ās with no chance of progression due to. what the NHS refers to as, ābed blockingā if you understand me.
bit of string really - my first OC as a 13yo cadet was timing out, decent bloke, no salad dodger and with a wealth of operational experience under his belt but just utterly divorced from anyone under 40 or so.
my next OC was from late 40ās to mid-50ās, he was just brilliant. connected totally wiv da yoot, an absolute star who spent most of his time with cadets laughing his head off - and the cadets reciprocated.
my gut reaction to your question was ābetter an experienced 65yo OC than no OCā, my fear however is that its going to be ābetter absolutely anyone, regardless of the inadequancies, than no OCā, however having had the doubtful pleasure of having two of the ACOās weapons grade throbbers imposed as OC within a year, iām not actually sure thats trueā¦
Or the problem can be, as we have in our wing, someone who may have been ok in the past (just about) twenty years later is still hanging on for grim death and believing they are brilliant purely based on have done twenty years. If HQAC doesnāt set some kind of upper limit with strict requirements for staying, you can end up with someone so out of touch that they spend their last few years just hacking people off but wing staff are too weak to move them to one side.
After all, we are very strict on keeping cadets past the age of 18 and I have seen a few go when they didnāt want to bet felt it was for the best.
HQAC gives 4 years as the ānormalā term for a squadron commander. I have no problem if someone is great and needed then they should stay but how great are they if they havenāt developed a replacement?
Trouble is at the moment we are losing uniformed staff left right and centre so extensions are granted regardless it seems. Anyone else seen this sort of thing?
Iām stunned that thereās a guideline!
Iāve never been around a sqn that had enough vrt for command to be passed around every four years - the only time command has been handed over (and I think Iāve had 6 OCās) is either when the incumbent retired, died, left the ACO, or just jacked in being an OC - and every single time finding a replacement has been less than straightforward.
veryvrt, forgive me for saying so but you appear to have an āideal worldā view of things. 4 years IS ideal for a Sqn Cdr term but the reality is - as you say yourself - that there arenāt enough staff to go around, hence officers staying in command of a Sqn for a very long time in a lot of cases.
Itās the first time in 13yrs Iāve heard of HQAC imposing a term for Sqn Cdrs - do you have a reference for that (it may be something that Iāve missed!).
However, in your view, how would this ā4-yearā term actually work? What would happen to the Sqn Cdr at the end of his term?
I fit right into that category. Iāve been running units for 20 years but my enthusiasm has been increasingly tested by the idiocy coming out of HQAC.
Personally I see the role of OC as being manager, guide and mentor, with others (by and large) doing the running around. I get out in front of the cadets on parade nights as much as possible but the demands in the modern era do mean that this isnāt as much as Iād like and I take the lead on sport at the sqn. What is the point of having other staff if the CO runs themselves into the ground, gets p!$$ed off and bins it? I have been in the situation of being one of 2 or 3 staff which is a nightmare and is one of the senarios that I know scares some from taking the plunge as you do feel obliged to take the lead, which then puts more pressure to do other things away from the sqn. I have taken a view in the last year of, if it doesnāt get done on a parade night, because others donāt do it or donāt turn up, tough. I am entitled to life outside the ATC, odd concept I know.
As a cadet I never saw the OCs I had except for the occasional lesson, final parades and some events and it didnāt affect my experience as a cadet one little bit. In fact itās a bit like managers at work, if you donāt see them it doesnāt matter.
As for 4 years as an OC it does seem, if correct, another complete disconnect between the ivory towers and us. This might work in the RAF etc with people being in command for a defined people but in the CF you are āavinā a larf. The fact that an increasing number of SNCOs are running sqns might be a little too subtle for them. Ironically we are now stuck with Commandants for 5 year tours, as opposed to the old 2 years max. Unlike a politician we canāt vote them out if we donāt like them.
As said what happens to the old OCs? They can stay where they are, but that could end up with a sqn being staffed by former OCs. If they wanted to move sqn or go onto Wing they could. But do people really want the aggro of potentially longer drives to a sqn, remembering this isnāt just for parade nights? I know a couple who have 20 mile drives which takes c.50 minutes (on a good day) and all they do is moan about it. I personally have no desire to go onto Wing Staff or a longer drive to a sqn. Itās bad enough currently if I get held up here and have to dash around at home, so any longer drive would mean not going because it wouldnāt be practical. Which would no doubt end up in moaning that the CO doesnāt care or similar. Currently I can be at the sqn in 10-15 minutes traffic and traffic lights willing, which does mean popping in for an hour isnāt too much of a problem. The next nearest squadon is 30 minutes. so popping in for an hour means at least 2 hours.
The problem we have is those at HQAC have no experience, therefore, no understanding of this.
The 4 year āruleā was announced last year from CAC, all depends how far it filters down.
If I recall correctly;
The premise is so that other staff in the organisation have something to work towards, the appointment should be advertised, and then last for an initial 4 years, and can be extended by a further 4 without being re advertised.
This should mean that all OC roles/WSO position should be advertised every 8 years, enabling the younger newer staff to put themselves forward for these roles.
Continuing the discussion from How old is too old?:
Well it looks like the legendary communication between Sleaford Tech and the coalface is working well.
First I have heard of itā¦
In a wing of 23 sqns with about 38 Sqn officers including OC and three sqn run by NCO and another half dozen with only one officer. How in gods name is it going to work?
The current recruitment process seems to have killed off potential staff wanting to become officers within the ATC. It has been more than a year since anybody has been commissioned here. With the cancelation of the next officer selection at Cranwell cancelled due to lack of candidates it seems that this problem is not restricted to my wing. For years the corps seems to have relied on the old salts to keep the organisation together and younger and younger staff taking over units and either burning out or dropping a bllck and being asked to go away. There are no experienced Fg Offs to step into the big chair.
I remember seeing the notion floated, but it wasnāt pushed so ignored it.
Good luck with advertising roles. Theyāve advertised Wing Staff opportunities in our Wing and no one take them on, because largely they are general roles, unless youāre mate terms with the Wg Cdr. But you wouldnāt apply for a job in the real world, if it was just into an organisation and they would give you a job once you were in. The last 3 sqn command posts have taken months to fill with vacant posts, as theyāve asked people who they thought would jump at it and theyāve said no thanks. These are the same people they would expect to apply. As a result we have people doing the role, 2 of whom are already looking to stand down and the other one is going NEP after Christmas.
I donāt really know where this notion of āhaving something to work towardsā comes from, it shows little understanding of what volunteering means. This is a hobby which you do because you want to contribute to something, not because you want to be something or higher ideals. At each stage of my ATC life I have been approached to do something, as Iāve been OK with doing what I was doing. But the suggestion was made and after consideration took it on.
Iām a member of RAFA and the RBL but have no desire of becoming a branch officer. In both instances there are people as branch officers who would like to step down and if someone said āI want to be ā¦ā, they would be greeted with open arms and similarly in the ATC if someone said I want to be a sqn cdr or Wing Staff Iām sure people would allow them, to fulfil their dream.
I could understand it if this was job and you got monthly deposits in your bank account and were contracted to undertake development, but it isnāt. We donāt even get an annual bounty so we canāt even be obliged to take it on, on those grounds.
Hi All
I do agree we need people to be able to take over at the right point and our wing, like many, does have Sqns run by ncoās and places with one officer.
If you are one of the very few these days who steps into a commissioned role you have obviously done that for a reason as opposed to NCOās.
I have worked with some world class SNCOās who I feel are far superior to me in knowledge and experience. Their motivation is second to none and, letās be honest here, we are running squadrons as a team of adults and, to my mind, a good NCO is worth ten times his weight in gold. Some officers are not worth their weight in anything.
I know of at least one warrant officer running a squadron. He is an absolutely brilliant guy. He is dedicated and does an amazing job. However, as he himself says, āsend me an officer please, I didnāt sign up for thisā. Nevertheless he does the job with great professionalism and his squadron is thriving.
So I will ask this. If you are a commissioned officer (pilot officer or flying officer) and actually feel that you could be more useful running a squadron and maybe, just maybe, by being twenty years younger you might relate to cadets and the wider world in a different way to someone in their 60ās, how on earth do you take on a squadron where the person has been there for many years and has never even considered that it might come to an end or that letting someone else take over might be a good thing?
With our policies, there is no reason that person could not stay in the corps, have an extension, become a CI or any number of other worthwhile jobs.
There should be jobs for us all. I think, as uniformed staff, we have volunteered in a slightly different way to CIās. We have accept d the structure and somewhat military way of doing things. We might have to accept that we could be asked to move. I agree that sometimes there is no one to take over. I agree that we need OCās. I also see that location can be an issue. I wouldnāt want to drive 40 miles just on the wing commanders say so. However, maybe there is room to say that you have been made OC and will be appointed for a set time. If no one is available at the end of that time, you might be asked to continue. You can then choose whether or not to do so. It might also be an idea to accept that anything past four years is a bonus and that the reason you are still there is because there wasnāt anyone else.
In terms of progression I do not agree. I do think that we can all contribute different things and make a difference in different ways. I could be an average NCO if I tried no more than that as I am not wired up that way. I have been a pretty good adj. I have been a training Offcier and various other roles. I am happy to be proved wrong but I do think I could make a difference as an OC. If not, or things change, I would step down. For me, itās not about the bar code on the shoulder. As mentioned, there isnāt a salary. This is not a career, I had one of those and loved it but now this is the best hobby in the world and I should get the chance to do formother cadets what adult staff did for me when I was a cadet.
What I would most welcome is the chance to steer the ship a bit if that makes sense. I would ask those I work with where we should go and I might want to redecorate the ship if those I worked with broadly agreed. I would welcome being able to support the brilliant work of our CIās, NCOās and above all else improve things for the cadets where I can. With the ācarry on til you die as we probably wonāt get anyone elseā style of things it is no wonder people leave.
Iām not sure age has anything to do with it and in this day and age itās a very dodgy area to say someone is too old to do something.
Are you suggesting that once youāve done your 4 or maybe 8 years itās time to go? So what about the 26 year old taking the job on, are you suggesting that at 34 itās the end of the road for them? Little or no point in commissioning and all the BS it entails now.
Where the problem lies increasingly is no one actually says is how time being an CO takes and can eat into your own time. Itās not just about āsteering the shipā itās managing the staff, overall responsibility for the training/development of everyone, responsible for H&S, and then Child Protection and not forgetting agony aunt/uncle to all and sundry and being fully accuntable for all of these aspects. Where I work it would command a salary of cĀ£40K and you wouldnāt be as accountable as COs are. If it was just āsteering the shipā it wouldnāt been anywhere nearly as (at times) onerous as it can be. The mental stress can be quite overwhelming at times and we supposedly do this for a bit of fun. I was chatting to the uncle of an ex-cadet now Officer (whom I know) and he told me his nephew is regretting commissioning (heās 23) as his CO takes nights off and holidays and leaves him in charge and is going to resign and become a CI as I said heās 23. The last time I saw him at a Wing event he had lost his āsparkā and not the young lad I knew as a cadet.
As for contributing unless you have got a CO who is a control freak you should be able to do whatever you like. I welcome any staff who say Iāll do this/that or has an idea, not too sure if they like the idea of me saying carry on.
The reality of the Corps is there arenāt lots of people queueing up to commission and our lady and lords probably canāt understand why and this lack of understanding is the crux of many problems in the Corps. Iāve got young CIs and they laugh when the subject of going into uniform, especially commissioning is mentioned. Looking around at some of the youngsters in our Wing who have commissioned they are years away from being Sqn Cdrs, but I know they will be long before they are IMO ready to take it on and as a result as said get burnt out and disillusioned and leave.
veryvrt - if you donāt mind me asking, how old are you and whatās your status on your Sqn?
When you consider the average age that the ACMB members join the Corps they arenāt spring chickens and they are running the Corps, making policies that are not in any way in tune with the staff let alone cadets.
What you need is something that makes being an Officer and then taking a squadron attractive to individuals, bearing in mind it is a hobby and not a mortgage/bill paying job. This latter point is why many arenāt attracted to it and donāt want it. I donāt think people are in post for years for fun. If you are keen to take a squadron speak to your WSO and say I want to run a squadron and I could almost guarantee youād be in post quicker than you might have expected and Iād bet you would take over from someone younger than the group you are critiquing.
my former sector had two of the four OCās - both well under thirty - jack it in within a year. both replaced by even younger peopleā¦
there were no officers under 35 in the sector, none of them had kids, and none of those who werenāt OCās (50%) were ringing up WSOās every night badgering for a Sqn.
the word ābleakā leaps to mindā¦
Surely it not a case of āhow old is too oldā, more a case of āhow long is too longā?
There is bound to be a case of someone, a Fg Off, who is in their 50s, who have never had the opportunity of talking command or has seen the light and moved from the darkside late in their ACO career. This type of person still has a number of years to serve, with ideas from years of having the opportunity of seeing what has happened around them. What is wrong about that? Nothing, as long as they still perform and the cadets are not suffering in the long run.
Turning this around, what about the young officer, ex-CWO, commissioned at 21-22 yrs old, Fg Off by their 24th birthday, with at least 40 years in uniform ahead of them. Should they take command at such a yound age and should they have the opportunity to become WSO and/or revert to Sqn Officer in the future.
The whole thing is totally dependent on staffing in your Wing and local area. I am sure we can all recognise the OC Sqn with 12 yrs plus in post, losing the edge because they have been in post to long.
I think you would need to look at when they commissioned (in the case of the 50+ Fg Off) and then is it a situation of no opportunity or a command when available hasnāt been conducive to their personal circumstances.
I donāt hold with the if you commission then you should take a command, instances where this argument is used as a way of getting someone to take a command invariably donāt work.
Taking a command and the time spent in that position has got to fit into your real life, which is irrelevant of rank, age etc. If you donāt want to do it anymore there are various routes to get out. The fact so many carry on for so long is probably because they still get something out of it, I know I do. When this stops then I will stop. This is in spite of the people we seem to get parachuted into senior jobs.
As a CI long past his prime, can I state in John Cleese words āThe bl**din obviousā?
People in their early twenties have spare time, late twenties onwards they have jobs, partners, mortgages, children and little time for anything else. By the time the rug-rats have gone and work has stabilised they have time for other activities, but are getting a bit ancient. Retirement brings even more time.
The unfortunate part is that the older people know enough about life to realise that the OC and Adjutant are now so snowed under with the ever increasing mountain of regulations and paperwork that they rarely have much actual contact with cadets any more. That was why they joined, not to run an office or battle with Bader and Utilearn (did I spell that right?). If you are commissioned you will surely get one of those jobs.
I donāt know the answer, but we must expect to lose VR(T) officers between, say, 25 and 50 if we keep increasing the workload HQAC expects them to do in their spare time.
this is the pattern i see in my sector and my wing.
people in their 40ās whoāve got the time and experience not touching OC roles with a 300ft bargepole, so new VR(T) entrants in their early 20ās being pressured to take the role and then binning it after two years or so and at about a 50-50 rate, binning the ACO as a whole.
socks off, aim, and fire.
In my (and others I know) opinion the CAC and the hierarchy at HQAC really donāt appreciate what motivated people to join as adult volunteers in the Corps. If they were cadets in the main it is to give back something to an organisation they got something of value from, itās really as simple as that! To some others it is also down to giving something to an organisation that has value for the youths in their area. What HQAC (and by definition CAC) donāt understand is that in the main (and Iām willing to take flack on this statement), the loyalty and association is to their local squadron, probably the one they were at as a cadet or in the town where they live. When the bods at HQAC suggest that you move on to another job or another squadron ālikeā you would be posted in the regular service people think āHold on, this is more hassle that itās worthā¦ these arenāt my neighbors kids and my towns kids, my loyalty was to them!ā OK, we all know that we joined the Air Training Corps (not the Air Cadets, I donāt remember joining the Air Cadets back in 1975 
) I know some ācareerā types in the VRT and they arenāt in it for the right reasons. I personally am sick and tired of the admin burden we have to endure now and rarely get out of the office to engage with cadets. For HQAC to treat us like the regular service with time limited appointments shows the complete lack of empathy they should have for us adult staff.
If it wasnāt for the pension I would retire early
Hi All
Apologies for not replying sooner but wanted to see where people were going with the thread.
For anyone interested" I am 48.
My āstatusā on the Sqn could best be described as general whipping boy. In theory 2 IC, flying and gliding, training officer and whatever else needs doing including instructing cadets.
I have previously been a CI.
Those in their twenties do indeed have time, those of us in our 40ās likewise.
I joined to try and give back. Cadets helped me hugely when a teenager, in my later career and helped me to be more than just another little scrote.
In our wing we have a fair mix of ages of OCās. The problem has become that a few of the very oldest (age ranging from 60ās to early 70ās) donāt want to let go and this can result in either high staff turnover at those squadrons or people just not going in the first place. They struggle to not do what they have always done and relating to the cadets can be difficult. One cadet from another squadron said to me āwow sir your young, our CO looks older than my grandadā. Iām flipping 48 and donāt look younger than that.
I agree that some of us wish to go to a local squadron and do something for our coommunity. There is no squadron near me (nearest is about 5 miles but full of great staff and no need for me). I have been at a squadron 27 miles away now at one 20 miles away. I have no great problem with either drive but nearer is generally easier. It might be that I am not from this area originally that means I donāt mind a reasonable drive but probably not. To my mind, itās about doing things for the cadets. Obviously, being a teenager and having a different mindset, it never occurred to me what our staff actually did or how hard they worked. Now I know.
We have a feckin amazing team of CIās at our Sqn who have put up with a lot. They now would like to see changes and be involved in making things better. Sadly we have one of those āIāve been running squadrons for 20 years and I know bestā kind of OCās who just walks on people.
I do agree that the ACO has a few āwaltsā and that we have career minded vr(t) people. I wish there was a way to weed them out but most places are getting so desperate for uniformed staff that they donāt have much to choose from (donāt even get me started on a 20 stone plus flying officer I met who saw himself as a future Sqn Ldr and tried sucking up to a regular marines officer on a course I attended (hilarious and a couple of us had a beer with said marine later who found it as funny as we did but had huge respect for us due to being an ex air cadet))
Letās be really clear I donāt have an ACO career. I currently have a job and previously had a responsible and successful career in the emergency services.
I have extensive command experience and huge amounts of HR training (way of the world for all emergency revives these days). I can fly various aeroplanes and can teach most of our subjects. What I have is something that can be very rewarding where I get chance to try and be as good as my Sqn officers were when I was a cadet. What I would like is more opportunity to let some of us who might have a bit more to add have a go.
We are not an RAF Regiment squadron and we donāt have any tornados knocking about in the yard which might excuse having a less than able officer if that were the only choice.
The 4 year term for OC edict from HQAC I agree with. If you read it, there are many get outs if there is no one else or that person is brilliant. What it can do is give wing a chance to move people sideways or elsewhere. We have a CCF Sqn Ldr with us who only turns up when he can help. He has run squadrons and done good work but feels no need to be in charge. He will be 63 next broth day when he plans to retire. That āretirementā will see him become a CI and member of our civcom. Good on him I say.
You are right in the admin burden but minimising it needs an open mind. There are social media methods and google docs ways of doing things (other search engines are available) but, some of our OCās wonāt entertain the idea.
There is one squadron near us where the OC might be starting to suffer short term memory loss and having trouble with BADER and the like. Who wants to be a t a squadron where the OC has a funny turn or has to be Babied along due to something which none of us are trained or equipped to deal with.
I hope that this thread will allow me to step aside gracefully when the time comes and, if I want to still be involved, be something else other than uniformed staff. Uniform is not just for the young but it is not for the too old either.
Veryvrt