Did we not have at one point No8-WI only qualification?
I recognise ww now complete the SAAI so a different qual but its the same outcome.
The president has been set that we had 0.22 only qualified staff - qual-lite if you will.
AR equivalent to the former 0.22 is not outside the wit of man to understand
âŚbut RAFAC only moves forwards, never backwards (in policy, not in delivery 
)
Everything has been standardised and a WS is a WS regardless of calibre and propellant - therefore 1 qual covers all and our CTR etc is a cut and paste with word replace (generally) of regular procedures and all driven from PAM21 I assume - thats why so much is not naturally intuitive for us - its not designed for our modus operandi
We need to break out of the vicious circle that currently makes it so difficult to get CFAV qualâd as AR-anything.
There shouldnât be the need to have such a high level of âSAAIâ qualification to teach / train the AR. Have a 2 day (maximum) AR RCO cse that includes a very basic MOI / assessment aspect. AR RCO can then train / assess on AR.
Yes we did - this should be the focus for AR-only qualification. It worked exceptionally well.
What numpty decided to include that as a requirement? Yes, as an RCO student, you have to shoot in order for each trainee RCO to get their âshoutsâ in. However, with regard to taking up space / time on a cadet shoot, that is very detrimental. Most RCOs would easily achieve CLF3 - others (who are still safe to shoot) would find it a struggle. Why throw in another obstacle?
That would take all the control away from SASC - never catch on!
Too true - a lot of CFAVs do not want to shoot L98 - all the faff to get qualâd, another weekend day away from home, weather factors to consider, more complicated RSDs/RASPs, etc, etc.
Dunno.
But it sure is one of the more stupid ideas recently.
It shouldnât - there are now 5 (6 with staff) lessons to cover, with breaks, plus the timings for WHTs. Shouldnât be a sub 4-hour course anymore. Chances are it isnât being taught in the proper detail to give both the weapon handling AND marksmanship skills. L144 on the other hand I can run two courses a day.
It has been brought in along with requirements for K Qual due to students turning up on courses unprepared.
There have been numerous instances where students have passed IWT the week before the course and then embarrass themselves with their shooting and weapons handling ability on the firing point. Lately resulting in a UD and investigation where RC WW opted to bring in requirements to ACP 18.
Oh dear, CFAVs do shoot themselves in the foot sometimes; now it is being mandated due to the lowest common denominator. Interesting conundrum - do you actually need to shoot to be able to run a range properly / safely?
More often than youâd realise. I think thatâs my main bugbear at the moment; there are some absolute chumps about who do stuff that results in everyone being treated as the lowest common denominator.
Sadly that is very true.
As regards the CLF3, it might be a good thing in the round but it needs to be planned in. And staff often donât get scores recorded, or opportunities to shoot are very ad hoc (bit of time at end of detail, cadet no shows etc)
Ahhhhh for the days of a days training to convert from .303 to the SLR, learn about the weapon, field strip and cleaning then up to the range for shooting using an H&K conversion kit on the barracks .22 range. Great fun.
Certainly back when I was an OC I wouldâve done.
I was an AR RCO because I had an AR range.
I wasnât prepared to give up 2 full weekends to go an an RCO Course when I didnât have the time or interest, but 1 weekend to run my own range was worth the investment of time. I wouldâve applied the same logic to a SAAI to be able to teach weapons locally.
Now I havenât run a range since pre-Covid so unless I go back to a unit with an AR range I doubt Iâll ever sort my ticket out.
I would very likely do some home learning and a one day course, at a push two days⌠For air rifle only shooting.
I donât have a massive interest in shooting, but if it unlocked a simple, easy to run, local activity and a gateway for the keen shooters to go on to l98 then Iâd do it. Iâm never going to sit on a cold l98 range for the day, but I would be happy to run an inside air rifle range for the cadets.
I canât be bothered to jump through the hoops set at the moment to run an air rifle range - and even if I could be bothered I certainly wouldnât anyway as it is so ridiculous to access an activity you can have immediate access to online.
The current system just makes us look silly.
I think thereâs a good chance. I have a CI with limited time, wants to upskill, probably wouldnât cope with getting up to speed with L98 but could be perfectly safe and can occasionally spare enough time to get an entire weekend to Qual.
A far more modular approach is more volunteer friendly - starting at AR for SAAI and RCO is an easy in that can be utilised on most squadrons, increasing what that sqn can self-sufficiently deliver. It also simplifies currency requirements.
From there, someone might get the taste, gain confidence, and be willing to spare some more time to upgrade. For many, itâs currently a lot of effort spent on something theyâll never properly utilise.
Looking at RCO, thereâs SR and LR - RCOs donât have to train beyond their interest level in that regard. Is AR RCO still a standalone thing? If so, thereâs a logical precedent to create a parallel path. If not, bring it back.
Make it easy, get people in, build skills from the ground.
Look at the modularity of AT, how many start off with DofE assessor, maybe get their LLA, then progress onto HML? We donât say âML or bustâ.
Not wanting to drag the thread away, but FT should also go back to the split of FCI/ECO. Iâve heard only rumours of the plans there around making delivery easier. But again we donât require FCIs to be SAAI and M Qual.
First Aiders donât have to be AFA Assessor qualâdâŚ
âŚyada yada yackety shmackety.
We really need something to (re)enable units to deliver the basics. Apart from anything else itâs not a good use of time on the DTE to be telling people how to do up a pouch.
Iâd like to see lessons 1, 2 and 3 and basic formations (not in the PAM) and the matching field signals taught as a very basic intro.
Perhaps let staff or senior cadets teach âone level downâ with some simple assurance from the Wg FTO. It works quite well for radio.
[thread drift off]
It is, SA(AR)12 Air Rifle RCO.
However you canât âupgradeâ to SR RCO, youâd have to do the full two Weekend course.
But already being an RCO should make the course easier as youâd already know how to produce a RSD and the AR range setup
Absolutely.
Two Sqns ago I was one of 2 AR only RCOâs, along with 2 other RCOs who also held SAAI (one was a RAF Regt SI and the other loved his shooting both in and out of RAFAC). We had our own AR range on Sqn, used on a weekly basis with rotating RCOs and we also regularly did L98 training and ranges as our Parent Station was less than 30 mins away. We were probably the most active Sqn in the Wing with regards to shooting. Did I know my way round an L98, absolutely, did I want to be an RCO for L98 ranges, maybe, did I want to be a SAAI, nope. In my opinion I could not maintain my interest and Qs in First Aid and AT alongside the SAAI requirement.
However, having SAAIs on Sqn was invaluable, without them there was no way we could maintain the shooting we did with the requirement for regular WHTs.
I last ran a range in January 2020, it took time to get me on a new Sqn after moving and the when I did, covid hit. After going back F2F the Wing still had a pause on shooting and when I moved again the pause was still in place so I had no opportunities to maintain my Q. My current Sqn has no AR range, weâve looked into it but with no SAAIâs within the local area, who do we ask to travel to meet the WHT requirements (Sqn of over 50 Cdts is not a one-night job).
We have three CFAVs who would happily do an AR SAAI only course as that would open up the possibility of AR shooting on a regular basis to the Sqn. We have the space for an AR range, we have the funds to buy one right now and three CFAVâs who would renew their AR RCO in a heartbeat, even if we had to redo the course but with no access to SAAIs weâre really not sure if it is viable option, so after a lot of waffle, yes, weâd do the AR only SAAI course if there was such a thing.
So if you already know and are qualified on parts of the course, why do you have to do the full course?
(Is there a subreddit suffix for rhetorical? Hashtags feel a little too âmillennialâ and I need to up my street hip for alpha pups and the zoomiesâŚ)
That would require another standalone course just to upgrade from AR RCO to full SR RCO.
The amount of time overlap is about half a day, maybe a little more but with all the demos required on the SR course it would still be longer than one weekend if you were already an AR RCO.
Anyone from the ACF/SCC/CCF you could approach?
Iâve found our local ACF to be quite helpful in that regard.
This is a good idea. What area is it roughly and I may be able to help with contacts.
Shooting officer not offering to support?