How much do we really need to know?

Adult Staff The Staff Mess
9

It is intriguing that not many seem to think that the members of the RAF (keep it in house) don’t need to know anything about the average CFAV. If RAF bods were accepting that we don’t live in the cosetted environment of the forces 24/7 and only dip our toes in maybe once a year for a week and we may get it wrong, we might get on a lot better. But then they wouldn’t have something to moan about over the summer.

There are the same old comments about ATC staff getting it wrong. Surely a word to the wise would be better than coming over all indgnant and taking through the CoC? I got a snotty call from the Sgt’s Mess manager when I was CC, after a CI was seen taking a newspaper from the ante room by a member. Although I said I’d speak to him, I asked why the CI hadn’t been tackled at the time, the Mess Mgr then started getting all rule book on me which got a “yep OK”, as I was losing the will. I do find this going through ‘management’ irksome, when a quick word puts it right and prevents someone getting grief for the sake of it. When I spoke to the CI, he said he’d seen it done before on his only previous camp 3 years beforehand and didn’t think it was a problem. The CI thought he knew who the complainant was and apologised to him, which he said put him on the back foot and the Sgt apologised for not just mentioning it to him. They had a couple of beers together and got on famously.

This IMO highlights two problems, as it’s in the mess where most incidents happen. ATC staff get little or no official infomation about mess rules/etiquette and seemingly our RAF bretheren don’t realise this, if they did then they might not get too vexed, afterall if you don’t know something, then you’re bouund to get it wrong.

I was lucky I suppose that when as a CI I was surrounded by WOs who had a wealth of experience and got a proper induction on what to and what not to do, when I went on my first couple of camps as 22/23 year old CI. This stood me in good stead. Now CI’s and newly uniformed staff are given plenty of advice, just so they don’t have stupid problems. The thing is nowadays, it’s more likely that things are done wrong as there are very few regulars in the mess. I’ve been on camps where we, with the exception of ½ dozen or so regulars are effectively the only ones using the mess’. This is evident from the tables laid for dinner at breakfast.

I have to admit to seeing what I regard a loosening of standards in terms of dress over the years. When I first started using a mess it was jacket, collar and tie, unless the senior member present in the absence of the CMC or PMC, said otherwise. I find it ironic that I take a large case and holdall for camps, due to the plethora uniform and leisure wear and I get all of my clothes and other bits in one holdall when we go on holiday. I’ve taken a jacket and non-uniform tie to my last 6 camps and they’ve not been out of the room, but I dare not take them.

10

An interesting comment from GHE2 above regarding training; just out of interest, has anyone thought of actually telling ATF that they are missing bits of training? Does ATF (or HQAC) contact people say 6 - 12 months after a course to see if the training was effective and what was actually needed? They should be, otherwise how is the training ever going to be what people actually need?

GHE2 makes a very good point at the start of this thread and there have been some excellent responses. I’ve posted on here a few times on how ‘RAF’ I think we should be and in short, that is to properly maintain the standing of the Service in the wider community and instil, as far as practicable, elements of the Service ethos. There have been a few comments along similar lines. But GHE 2 also mentions above on whether the Regular Service actually understand what we do and I think he’s absolutely right; there is misunderstanding in both areas. Without doubt, many in the VR(T) and adult WO/SNCO cadre don’t understand the basics of how to behave in their messes and elsewhere and that is a failing on the part of our initial training system. I recall being briefed by my CO (an ex National Serviceman) on what to do in the Mess; we also got a handout on Etiquette and Social Responsibility at Newton on the Basic Course. Whether that handout is still issued, I know not, but it should be. On the other hand, and unfortunately, Regular IOT mentions nothing about the ACO and its staff (at least it didn’t’) and that’s wrong, especially when you consider that whilst the RAF trumpets that 50% (or thereabouts) of RAF officers were cadets (and would presumably,y understand the ACO), that also means 50% weren’t. Furthermore, those that actually were cadets probably won’t have a good upstanding of the nuances of what adult staff actually do. A very brief session in IOT on the ACO, along the ones of ‘this is the ACO, this is what it does for the RAF and these are their staff who you are likely to come across in the Mess’ would not be amiss.

The lowering of mess dress standards is a widespread phenomenon across the RAF, but not so I believe in the Navy or Army. Unfortunately, Cranwell is hugely varied with some students allowed to adopt more casual attire at all times, whilst other (including I suspect, our own trainees) being made to dress more formally. At the end of the day, the overall behaviour remains the same regardless of what you’re wearing, but it pays to check with the PMC or Mess Manager what the standards are before visiting; a good Camp Commandant should do that as well and brief everyone beforehand. I’ve always taken a jacket and tie regardless, as you never know when a VIP may just turn up, forcing everyone into ‘Red Dress Code’.

GHE2 has also already mentioned the staff makeup years ago and I recall when I was a cadet back in the 70s, many of the staff were ex wartime or ex National Service officers. They gave us the Service ethos that we needed. Unfortunately, there are none of these people around any more in uniformed positions and we are not getting anywhere near the same numbers of ex Regulars joining. Therefore, the Corps has to look to itself to staff the Sqns with the result that most of our VR(T) officers are now former cadets. Now that isn’t in itself a bad thing, ex cadets bring enthusiasm and an immediate connection with the cadets to ensure activities remain relevant. What they don’t have is the Service experience which, even in a small degree, is important in the overall concept of what the Corps aims to do. Regrettably, and we have seen the evidence on this site, people don’t know the basics or even where to get advice. Consequently, they make things up and we see the Air Cadet folklore that we are all familiar with. In my view, an ideal split would be equal proportions of ex cadets for the connection with our charges, ex regulars for the military ethos (properly regulated of course) and ex direct civvies for the broadening of everyone’s perspectives!

To finish, 397k has also commented on the worst in our organisation, the disaffected ex junior ranks, mainly, who are on a ‘power trip’ and I entirely agree with the sentiment; there aren’t that many of them but the multiplying effect they have is disproportionate. It’s always a very difficult decision for Sqn Cdrs when you get an ex Junior Rank come along. They can look very good on paper and their demeanour with the Boss is always spot on, but you may not pick up their underlying traits until they are in the organisation. Please don’t get me wrong, some of our best SNCOs are ex Junior Ranks, but as always, it’s the few bad apples that spoil things.

11

Which is where communication comes in from those with experience in the Corps, and those relatively new to it, or new as uniformed staff having been cadets previously - so when you know your new VRT Officer is off for their first visit to a station you talk to them about what they need to do, take and know. The “RAF bretheren” probably do realise this, and to a point probably aren’t that bothered on a personal level (I’m certainly not). The example I cited earlier was in a Mess at Cranwell, the persons in question were asked if they wouldn’t mind using the cloakroom, which they did. Sorted short term, with a little personal embarrassment perhaps, and hopefully subsequent courses will be given better direction in JIs, induction briefs etc from their course staff. Standards are there for a reason, but of course not everyone is going to know them the instant they arrive. :slight_smile:

(It’s also worth noting that some stations post their Mess Rules and Regulations on the internet, so are available via search engine)

No 1 mess is suits for the junior IOT cadets, the other three (CHOM, YHOM, DOM) are a little more relaxed, with Chinos & shirt/polo shirt being the norm (with jeans in DOM and YHOM at weekends). For any occasional visitor to any mess, you can’t go wrong with chinos (not red!)/smart trousers and a shirt, and a tie in the bedroom just in case. :slight_smile: Some front line stations will see people in shorts and flip flops in the summer; I’d venture that this is a bit too far on the relaxed side of things! :lol:

12

I meant the student officers at Cranwell Chaz, not the IOT cadets. Last time I was in Deadloss Mess, the RAF aircrew, eng students and other course students were in chinos etc, whilst the Navy and Army guys on EFTS and their staff were suits. Good advice though re the chinos and jacket with tie; I always do it!

13

[quote=“cygnus maximus” post=10489]
I meant the student officers at Cranwell Chaz, not the IOT cadets. Last time I was in Deadloss Mess, the RAF aircrew, eng students and other course students were in chinos etc, whilst the Navy and Army guys on EFTS and their staff were suits. Good advice though re the chinos and jacket with tie; I always do it![/quote]

Gotcha. Everyone’s all a bit more relaxed now, even the Army and Navy. :slight_smile:

14

i see your point (of your full post) completely however for me at least i am “interacting” with the RAF every other month visiting the armoury, booking a range, staying on camp/in the mess for a training course, either as an instructor or student for a weekend or just the day. going to AEFs, or for the Wing sports days (5-a-side, trails/team selection etc)

i have to admit the practise has made “perfect” (to complete the phrase rather than indicate i am perfection) and am certainly a lot more confident walking around a station/around a mess.

as mentioned by others there could perhaps be more indication for those new to the role of Staff of station and mess etiquette to avoid embarassement.
Our wing have held the BASIC courses purposely on an RAF Station and fully utilises the mess for this reason (or is my understanding for it anyway) but there is always a “following others example” rather than knowing what is right and wrong i find…

15

One of the last times I was in DOM was with a friend who was waiting to be posted, so was holding. We were sat in the bar on a sunday evening, in casual attire - Jeans, polo shirt and trainers. The 1/2 dozen or so other regulars that were in the bar were dressed similarly.

The exception was the ATF course who were sat in the corner, all dressed up with no place to go, suits, jackets, ties, shoes. They stood out worse than a sore thumb, especially as they were making no attempt to mix - something that we’ve all been guilty of I suspect.

It was an eye-opener being sat ‘on the other side’ if you like and seeing what we (the VR(T)) actually look like to the regulars.

Of course, back on the topic. It would be ideal if the ACLO were to actually spend time with the camp staff, on arrival, or and with them in the mess on the first evening, to make sure that they are familiar with the rules, help them avoid any little embarrassments, and generally introduce them to the mess. Unfortunately, in my experience (and I know there are exceptions), the ACLO is all too busy off with their friends, at home eating dinner, or just plain not interested and doing the job because it might help with a promotion board. I have seen them walk into the dinner hall, spot the camp staff, and then go sit as far away as possible.

16

[quote=“ex-bawtryboy” post=10510][quote=“cygnus maximus” post=10489]

[/quote]One of the last times I was in DOM was with a friend who was waiting to be posted, so was holding. We were sat in the bar on a sunday evening, in casual attire - Jeans, polo shirt and trainers. The 1/2 dozen or so other regulars that were in the bar were dressed similarly.

The exception was the ATF course who were sat in the corner, all dressed up with no place to go, suits, jackets, ties, shoes. They stood out worse than a sore thumb, especially as they were making no attempt to mix - something that we’ve all been guilty of I suspect.[/quote]

This is something that I think hampers the interaction between CFAV and Regulars. My wing is the same, in that on the Basic course we were told we were never to wear jeans and that wing staff always wore smart trousers and shirts in the mess. Stood out like sore thumbs.

As for VR(T) IOT, we followed Deadloss Mess rules and had several evenings of open banter and conversation with all the regulars from many different forces.

Sometimes, I wonder if it is the ACO that needs to change its attitude to things like dress in the mess? I have met ACO CFAV’s who are so stuck in there ways that they cannot see it sometimes does more harm than good.

17

Deadalus mess is best viewed from inside a hot tub with a glass of bolly (allegedly).

18

[quote=“boxfresh” post=10559]This is something that I think hampers the interaction between CFAV and Regulars. My wing is the same, in that on the Basic course we were told we were never to wear jeans and that wing staff always wore smart trousers and shirts in the mess. Stood out like sore thumbs.

As for VR(T) IOT, we followed Deadloss Mess rules and had several evenings of open banter and conversation with all the regulars from many different forces.

Sometimes, I wonder if it is the ACO that needs to change its attitude to things like dress in the mess? I have met ACO CFAV’s who are so stuck in there ways that they cannot see it sometimes does more harm than good.[/quote]

Surely, our attitude should be that we follow Mess Rules, nothing more or less? But you have to remember that Mess Rules dictate the minimum standards and it has always been acceptable for someone to wear a suit every evening in the Mess if they wish and nobody will tell you not to. Indeed, if you are unsure, there is the view that if in doubt, it’s always better to over-dress.

Arguably, rather than change attitudes to things like dress in the Mess what we need to change is people’s overall attitudes to what is or is not acceptable behaviour in a Mess in general. I give the following as examples that I have not only heard of, but also personally seen on more than one occasion: Visiting VR(T) officers getting rat faced in the bar and engaging in ‘high spirits’ which resulted in damage. Officers publicly disciplining Mess staff. Senior VR(T) officers ‘asking’ other Mess visitors to move rooms so his staff could all be together. Now whilst you could argue that some incorrect behaviour is due to a lack of knowledge, such as outdoor gear in public rooms, much of what we do wrong is passed on as ‘what the RAF officer corps does’ - such as trashing the bar. That level of ignorance needs to be addressed early in someone’s VR(T) Adult ATC career to prevent bad behaviour and break the cycle of false information.

19

When I was at DOM a few months ago, I found that they have gone back to RED dress some evenings, and GREEN has gone back to no jeans, shoes and collar at all other times.

Quite a change from when I was there about 2 years ago, where jeans and trainers seemed to be standard. Guess its a change of PMC and mess committee.

20

The problem is the changes in generation, such that younger people aren’t accustomed to “dressing properly”. When I first went to discos nn 1980 (clubs in modern parlance) blokes the baseline dress code was collar and tie and by the time I finished my clubbing days in 1991 it was smart jeans and shirts, now (if my kids are anything to go by) there are no standards. When I first started work it was jacket, collar, tie and a “hats on” with the Chief Accountant if you didn’t. Even now I invariably wear shirt, trousers and shoes as I feel you need to at least look more professional than jeans and trainers. Thus over the years expected dress standards IMO have dropped. This shift with different generations has meant in mess’ what is acceptable has changed. For better or worse is a matter of opinion. I don’t buy the argument that “they’ve had a hard/busy day at work”, I doubt that has changed enough over the years.

I tend to agree with CM in that better to over-dress, as it’s always easier to dress down and who really cares what the regulars think, I know I don’t. Although a look at the mess rules on arrival will clarify what the basline after hours public room dress is.

Also as a baby CI I was told you have been invited into what is in effect someone’s home and you should respect that.

21

I tend to avoid the mess for anything other than meals and sleeping so the dress code is seldom an issue for me. I’ve never needed a jacket and tie on a normal camp.

22

So what dress code do the dining rooms have?

23

So what dress code do the dining rooms have?[/quote]When I’m there, typically uniform :slight_smile:

24

Just wondered as it’s a Public Room. But uniform will do!

25

[quote=“juliet mike” post=10586]When I was at DOM a few months ago, I found that they have gone back to RED dress some evenings, and GREEN has gone back to no jeans, shoes and collar at all other times.

Quite a change from when I was there about 2 years ago, where jeans and trainers seemed to be standard. Guess its a change of PMC and mess committee.[/quote]

Jeans were allowed on weekdays from about mid 2011 to early 2013. Amber dress is now in DOM on weekdays (no jeans), reverting to Green on Friday afternoon (jeans).

26

I have done all of those listed in bold in a mess as a full member and visiting member… is not behaviour that needs to change it the judgment of when you can and cant and the bit underlined, if I was a visiting officer and I got asked to move and it was a reasonable request, no issues, if I was a full member then yes.

I have been in many different messes of all forces and even tri-service messes. Every single one is differ! For the RN at least it depends on who the Mess Pres is as to the wearing of denim or not.

I have also visited many messes with CFAV, every time I have been with the ACO I have seen significant reservation in ‘getting involved’ and its part of the experience at the right time in the right way.

The only negative situation I have experienced was with the CCF. The manner in which they engaged with the mess stewards was was appalling, the way they treated the bar staff was disgraceful and their attitude was completely inappropriate. This was a few individuals admittedly. Said individuals, in the mess the permission of the Mess Pres was gained to have them sat on an allocated table and provided no form of service or interaction from the stewards or mess members and in the bar, they were banned unless they asked specific permission and a senior mess member to enter and only when senior mess members were present so they could be request to leave. Only negative experience in a number of years.

27

[quote=“chaz” post=10614][quote=“juliet mike” post=10586]When I was at DOM a few months ago, I found that they have gone back to RED dress some evenings, and GREEN has gone back to no jeans, shoes and collar at all other times.

Quite a change from when I was there about 2 years ago, where jeans and trainers seemed to be standard. Guess its a change of PMC and mess committee.[/quote]

Jeans were allowed on weekdays from about mid 2011 to early 2013. Amber dress is now in DOM on weekdays (no jeans), reverting to Green on Friday afternoon (jeans).[/quote]

Ah yes, I stand corrected on that, I was thinking amber dress, but couldn’t remember.

28

We were given a “mess etiquette” handout upon arrival at DOM a couple of weeks ago. I suggested at the end if the course it should be sent out with JI’s for familiarisation. They seemed to think that was a good idea, so it may happen (probably not) :lol:

And jeans and chinos were fine as long as they weren’t tatty.