How much do we really need to know?

I wonder how much do (you think) we really need to know?

But if we were to know it who would tell us and what real difference would it make to our day jobs and what we do in the ATC?

What we don’t need is people who have been in the armed forces, joining the cadet forces who know sod all about the cadet forces (apart maybe from seeing them at camp) expecting a down-scaled version of “home”, or, telling us how we should be doing things, how crap we are, how we don’t understand the armed forces and how we’re not doing it exactly the same as the RAF. Rather than latch onto their every word those who go around like this are treated politely, but derided by the majority of staff and that includes those who have served, very few have any respect. I grew up as a cadet surrounded by many staff who had served between 1940 and 1975. Some of these became friends later on and I never heard any of them saying how poor the ATC was in comparison to the RAf and how they should be doing things differently, which is seems to be how it comes across in the modern era.

I’ve met 2 in the last 3 years who I think have got real issues around how their service lives panned out, not as much active service overeas as they feel they should have done, not as much promotion and redundancy, which they are effectively taking out on the cadet forces and IMO want to re-live their service life through the ATC and prove something to the RAF who in their eyes rejected them.

I think that there are more important gaps to be addressed in the ‘knowledge’ and understanding of the real CFAV experience for those ex-members or retirees who join the cadet forces.

Absolutely right, the answer to this is strong positive leadership that has the ability to draw out the best of both worlds from both the ex-Forces and career civilian staff in their team.

I’d say we need to know enough in our ‘field’ to be competant to fulfill our roles and enough across the board to be able to relate to RAF on a level that doesn’t make us seem like walting idiots or subservient twits.

I know plenty of people in various positions in the ATC who spend more time chasing down staff and cadets over percieved ‘problems’, things that the military really aren’t fussed about (because they’re total non-issues), than they do actually focusing on the important issues.
This seems to be due to a total lack of understanding of the parent service. They think they know how the RAF work…but it’s clear that they’ve actually missed the point entirely.

At the other end of the spectrum, there are those who treat RAF personnel like deities. Afraid to ask for anything. Afraid to speak up. &c

Neither of these attitudes do anything to help our image in the eyes of normal RAF personnel.
I think what’s needed is a better understanding of the real-world working practices so that we don’t appear to be a bunch of clueless 'want-to-be’s.

Don’t you also think there is a need for the RAF to be fully aware of us? If you are to have a working symbiotic relationship, it’s a 2-way street.

As I say you only need to look at our higher command levels and even the CS at Wing and Region to see they are clueless about the average CFAV. Which causes unnecessary friction and ill-feeling on all sides.

Frankly I don’t really care about the day to day trials and tribulations of their day to day job, as much I wouldn’t expect them to be worried about what goes on my day to day job.

We only really interact with the RAF at annual camp. Once upon a time this would be an annual event, but now you might get to go every 2/3/4+ years. A full understanding that when at camp we are in an alien environment, as much as they would be in our workplace, for a few days, and are bound to not do things or be fully understanding of the Air Force’s way. If they came into our workplace for a week every year or two or three and be expected to know how everything’s done? It would help immensely by giving us a nudge here and there in helpful way. I’ve got to say if I treated clients the way I’ve been treated by some on camp, I’d get a rollicking.

The irony is I’ve got mates who have done detachments with other branches of the armed forces and taken time to get used to the different ways each one works. Why would we be expected to be any different?

[quote=“wdimagineer2b” post=10415]I’d say we need to know enough in our ‘field’ to be competant to fulfill our roles and enough across the board to be able to relate to RAF on a level that doesn’t make us seem like walting idiots or subservient twits.
[/quote]

That’s a fair point I think.

The Air Cadets serve partly to educate and enthuse young people towards aviation, flying, the RAF, and as such provide a grounding in such matters and subjects. If cadets or staff want to take that further, that is up to them. I would venture, that as I left the Corps and went for selection I knew far more about certain parts of the RAF then my Sqn staff; however I wouldn’t expect them to know them to the same level of detail. It didn’t matter.

As staff I would expect a decent grounding in the history and ethos of the organisation and the RAF, and being able to educate the cadets to a certain extent as to the discipline required. I’d also expect the staff to know, or be educated in the required standards and etiquette for their rank, so they could use service facilities without causing embarrassment. As an example, recently I was in the bar in a Mess of a large RAF station. Several VRT Officers on a course were using the bar, and two or three were wearing outdoor coats, or using the furniture to store them. Trivial perhaps, and certainly no drama, but a naive mistake that in some places may effect the perception of VRT staff within the regular RAF as being “a bit gash”. That all comes down to education (I believe the next course will be “educated” - so constructive feedback from the regulars can help VRT etc :slight_smile: ).

So, in short, you need to know enough to mentor and motivate your cadets (and staff), and enough to get on at a service facility. After all, we’re all in the same uniform. :slight_smile:

[quote]I’ve met 2 in the last 3 years who I think have got real issues around how their service lives panned out, not as much active service overeas as they feel they should have done, not as much promotion and redundancy, which they are effectively taking out on the cadet forces and IMO want to re-live their service life through the ATC and prove something to the RAF who in their eyes rejected them.
[/quote]

It’s a shame that impression comes across. You hope that they aren’t. Sadly it’s an organisation running on the goodwill and effort of volunteers, so it can be hard - and sometimes inappropriate - to reject someone (a bit like a selection fitness test argument for VRT staff). I can sympathise though, and as a cadet I can remember a couple of staff who gave the impression they felt they’d been rejected by the regular forces, and/or wanted to be in the Corps just as an excuse to shout and intimidate young people. I suspect quite a few cadets may have left because of them.

a very interesting discussion my concern is more CFAV’s who are failed regulars, in that I mean never having served or have been refused and are using their Air Cadet staff role as a way of “living their dream”.

These are the most dangerous type of people in our organisation, they seem to fail to realise that we are a Youth Organisation and the nature of our volunteering is that we wear an RAF uniform. We do it well and do not disgrace it but we are not regular troops.Our Cadets are not enlisted men and women to be ordered around.

What is even more sad is that these people have a skewed view of what the RAF actually is, they use NATO speak, fill their conversations with three letter acronyms and believe that this is our career.

It is not it is my voluntary hobby.

We do need a good working knowledge of the RAF and the services but we also need to ensure that we do the best for our cadets and their life choices

[quote=“397k” post=10468]
We do need a good working knowledge of the RAF and the services but we also need to ensure that we do the best for our cadets and their life choices[/quote]

Spot on. :slight_smile:

How can you be a failed Regular if you never served?

I agree people Like that are in the ACO for completely the wrong reasons. Certain Roles Such as a Squadron WO or SNCO require us to enforce a certain amount of Discipline because it is part of Life in the Services. But that shouldnt mean we go all Sgt Mjr Plumley on a poor 13 yr old (No matter how fun old school CWO’s made it look)

In terms of the topic, We need to know enough to get us by. If there is a genuine interest in a certain aspect of the RAF, Such as Music and Ceremonial or Helicopter Operations ect then knowing more about that subject would be good. However its pointless trying to learn every small detail of the Service as im pretty sure the People at the Top dont know that much.

It is intriguing that not many seem to think that the members of the RAF (keep it in house) don’t need to know anything about the average CFAV. If RAF bods were accepting that we don’t live in the cosetted environment of the forces 24/7 and only dip our toes in maybe once a year for a week and we may get it wrong, we might get on a lot better. But then they wouldn’t have something to moan about over the summer.

There are the same old comments about ATC staff getting it wrong. Surely a word to the wise would be better than coming over all indgnant and taking through the CoC? I got a snotty call from the Sgt’s Mess manager when I was CC, after a CI was seen taking a newspaper from the ante room by a member. Although I said I’d speak to him, I asked why the CI hadn’t been tackled at the time, the Mess Mgr then started getting all rule book on me which got a “yep OK”, as I was losing the will. I do find this going through ‘management’ irksome, when a quick word puts it right and prevents someone getting grief for the sake of it. When I spoke to the CI, he said he’d seen it done before on his only previous camp 3 years beforehand and didn’t think it was a problem. The CI thought he knew who the complainant was and apologised to him, which he said put him on the back foot and the Sgt apologised for not just mentioning it to him. They had a couple of beers together and got on famously.

This IMO highlights two problems, as it’s in the mess where most incidents happen. ATC staff get little or no official infomation about mess rules/etiquette and seemingly our RAF bretheren don’t realise this, if they did then they might not get too vexed, afterall if you don’t know something, then you’re bouund to get it wrong.

I was lucky I suppose that when as a CI I was surrounded by WOs who had a wealth of experience and got a proper induction on what to and what not to do, when I went on my first couple of camps as 22/23 year old CI. This stood me in good stead. Now CI’s and newly uniformed staff are given plenty of advice, just so they don’t have stupid problems. The thing is nowadays, it’s more likely that things are done wrong as there are very few regulars in the mess. I’ve been on camps where we, with the exception of ½ dozen or so regulars are effectively the only ones using the mess’. This is evident from the tables laid for dinner at breakfast.

I have to admit to seeing what I regard a loosening of standards in terms of dress over the years. When I first started using a mess it was jacket, collar and tie, unless the senior member present in the absence of the CMC or PMC, said otherwise. I find it ironic that I take a large case and holdall for camps, due to the plethora uniform and leisure wear and I get all of my clothes and other bits in one holdall when we go on holiday. I’ve taken a jacket and non-uniform tie to my last 6 camps and they’ve not been out of the room, but I dare not take them.

An interesting comment from GHE2 above regarding training; just out of interest, has anyone thought of actually telling ATF that they are missing bits of training? Does ATF (or HQAC) contact people say 6 - 12 months after a course to see if the training was effective and what was actually needed? They should be, otherwise how is the training ever going to be what people actually need?

GHE2 makes a very good point at the start of this thread and there have been some excellent responses. I’ve posted on here a few times on how ‘RAF’ I think we should be and in short, that is to properly maintain the standing of the Service in the wider community and instil, as far as practicable, elements of the Service ethos. There have been a few comments along similar lines. But GHE 2 also mentions above on whether the Regular Service actually understand what we do and I think he’s absolutely right; there is misunderstanding in both areas. Without doubt, many in the VR(T) and adult WO/SNCO cadre don’t understand the basics of how to behave in their messes and elsewhere and that is a failing on the part of our initial training system. I recall being briefed by my CO (an ex National Serviceman) on what to do in the Mess; we also got a handout on Etiquette and Social Responsibility at Newton on the Basic Course. Whether that handout is still issued, I know not, but it should be. On the other hand, and unfortunately, Regular IOT mentions nothing about the ACO and its staff (at least it didn’t’) and that’s wrong, especially when you consider that whilst the RAF trumpets that 50% (or thereabouts) of RAF officers were cadets (and would presumably,y understand the ACO), that also means 50% weren’t. Furthermore, those that actually were cadets probably won’t have a good upstanding of the nuances of what adult staff actually do. A very brief session in IOT on the ACO, along the ones of ‘this is the ACO, this is what it does for the RAF and these are their staff who you are likely to come across in the Mess’ would not be amiss.

The lowering of mess dress standards is a widespread phenomenon across the RAF, but not so I believe in the Navy or Army. Unfortunately, Cranwell is hugely varied with some students allowed to adopt more casual attire at all times, whilst other (including I suspect, our own trainees) being made to dress more formally. At the end of the day, the overall behaviour remains the same regardless of what you’re wearing, but it pays to check with the PMC or Mess Manager what the standards are before visiting; a good Camp Commandant should do that as well and brief everyone beforehand. I’ve always taken a jacket and tie regardless, as you never know when a VIP may just turn up, forcing everyone into ‘Red Dress Code’.

GHE2 has also already mentioned the staff makeup years ago and I recall when I was a cadet back in the 70s, many of the staff were ex wartime or ex National Service officers. They gave us the Service ethos that we needed. Unfortunately, there are none of these people around any more in uniformed positions and we are not getting anywhere near the same numbers of ex Regulars joining. Therefore, the Corps has to look to itself to staff the Sqns with the result that most of our VR(T) officers are now former cadets. Now that isn’t in itself a bad thing, ex cadets bring enthusiasm and an immediate connection with the cadets to ensure activities remain relevant. What they don’t have is the Service experience which, even in a small degree, is important in the overall concept of what the Corps aims to do. Regrettably, and we have seen the evidence on this site, people don’t know the basics or even where to get advice. Consequently, they make things up and we see the Air Cadet folklore that we are all familiar with. In my view, an ideal split would be equal proportions of ex cadets for the connection with our charges, ex regulars for the military ethos (properly regulated of course) and ex direct civvies for the broadening of everyone’s perspectives!

To finish, 397k has also commented on the worst in our organisation, the disaffected ex junior ranks, mainly, who are on a ‘power trip’ and I entirely agree with the sentiment; there aren’t that many of them but the multiplying effect they have is disproportionate. It’s always a very difficult decision for Sqn Cdrs when you get an ex Junior Rank come along. They can look very good on paper and their demeanour with the Boss is always spot on, but you may not pick up their underlying traits until they are in the organisation. Please don’t get me wrong, some of our best SNCOs are ex Junior Ranks, but as always, it’s the few bad apples that spoil things.

Which is where communication comes in from those with experience in the Corps, and those relatively new to it, or new as uniformed staff having been cadets previously - so when you know your new VRT Officer is off for their first visit to a station you talk to them about what they need to do, take and know. The “RAF bretheren” probably do realise this, and to a point probably aren’t that bothered on a personal level (I’m certainly not). The example I cited earlier was in a Mess at Cranwell, the persons in question were asked if they wouldn’t mind using the cloakroom, which they did. Sorted short term, with a little personal embarrassment perhaps, and hopefully subsequent courses will be given better direction in JIs, induction briefs etc from their course staff. Standards are there for a reason, but of course not everyone is going to know them the instant they arrive. :slight_smile:

(It’s also worth noting that some stations post their Mess Rules and Regulations on the internet, so are available via search engine)

No 1 mess is suits for the junior IOT cadets, the other three (CHOM, YHOM, DOM) are a little more relaxed, with Chinos & shirt/polo shirt being the norm (with jeans in DOM and YHOM at weekends). For any occasional visitor to any mess, you can’t go wrong with chinos (not red!)/smart trousers and a shirt, and a tie in the bedroom just in case. :slight_smile: Some front line stations will see people in shorts and flip flops in the summer; I’d venture that this is a bit too far on the relaxed side of things! :lol:

I meant the student officers at Cranwell Chaz, not the IOT cadets. Last time I was in Deadloss Mess, the RAF aircrew, eng students and other course students were in chinos etc, whilst the Navy and Army guys on EFTS and their staff were suits. Good advice though re the chinos and jacket with tie; I always do it!

[quote=“cygnus maximus” post=10489]
I meant the student officers at Cranwell Chaz, not the IOT cadets. Last time I was in Deadloss Mess, the RAF aircrew, eng students and other course students were in chinos etc, whilst the Navy and Army guys on EFTS and their staff were suits. Good advice though re the chinos and jacket with tie; I always do it![/quote]

Gotcha. Everyone’s all a bit more relaxed now, even the Army and Navy. :slight_smile:

i see your point (of your full post) completely however for me at least i am “interacting” with the RAF every other month visiting the armoury, booking a range, staying on camp/in the mess for a training course, either as an instructor or student for a weekend or just the day. going to AEFs, or for the Wing sports days (5-a-side, trails/team selection etc)

i have to admit the practise has made “perfect” (to complete the phrase rather than indicate i am perfection) and am certainly a lot more confident walking around a station/around a mess.

as mentioned by others there could perhaps be more indication for those new to the role of Staff of station and mess etiquette to avoid embarassement.
Our wing have held the BASIC courses purposely on an RAF Station and fully utilises the mess for this reason (or is my understanding for it anyway) but there is always a “following others example” rather than knowing what is right and wrong i find…

One of the last times I was in DOM was with a friend who was waiting to be posted, so was holding. We were sat in the bar on a sunday evening, in casual attire - Jeans, polo shirt and trainers. The 1/2 dozen or so other regulars that were in the bar were dressed similarly.

The exception was the ATF course who were sat in the corner, all dressed up with no place to go, suits, jackets, ties, shoes. They stood out worse than a sore thumb, especially as they were making no attempt to mix - something that we’ve all been guilty of I suspect.

It was an eye-opener being sat ‘on the other side’ if you like and seeing what we (the VR(T)) actually look like to the regulars.

Of course, back on the topic. It would be ideal if the ACLO were to actually spend time with the camp staff, on arrival, or and with them in the mess on the first evening, to make sure that they are familiar with the rules, help them avoid any little embarrassments, and generally introduce them to the mess. Unfortunately, in my experience (and I know there are exceptions), the ACLO is all too busy off with their friends, at home eating dinner, or just plain not interested and doing the job because it might help with a promotion board. I have seen them walk into the dinner hall, spot the camp staff, and then go sit as far away as possible.

[quote=“ex-bawtryboy” post=10510][quote=“cygnus maximus” post=10489]

[/quote]One of the last times I was in DOM was with a friend who was waiting to be posted, so was holding. We were sat in the bar on a sunday evening, in casual attire - Jeans, polo shirt and trainers. The 1/2 dozen or so other regulars that were in the bar were dressed similarly.

The exception was the ATF course who were sat in the corner, all dressed up with no place to go, suits, jackets, ties, shoes. They stood out worse than a sore thumb, especially as they were making no attempt to mix - something that we’ve all been guilty of I suspect.[/quote]

This is something that I think hampers the interaction between CFAV and Regulars. My wing is the same, in that on the Basic course we were told we were never to wear jeans and that wing staff always wore smart trousers and shirts in the mess. Stood out like sore thumbs.

As for VR(T) IOT, we followed Deadloss Mess rules and had several evenings of open banter and conversation with all the regulars from many different forces.

Sometimes, I wonder if it is the ACO that needs to change its attitude to things like dress in the mess? I have met ACO CFAV’s who are so stuck in there ways that they cannot see it sometimes does more harm than good.

Deadalus mess is best viewed from inside a hot tub with a glass of bolly (allegedly).

[quote=“boxfresh” post=10559]This is something that I think hampers the interaction between CFAV and Regulars. My wing is the same, in that on the Basic course we were told we were never to wear jeans and that wing staff always wore smart trousers and shirts in the mess. Stood out like sore thumbs.

As for VR(T) IOT, we followed Deadloss Mess rules and had several evenings of open banter and conversation with all the regulars from many different forces.

Sometimes, I wonder if it is the ACO that needs to change its attitude to things like dress in the mess? I have met ACO CFAV’s who are so stuck in there ways that they cannot see it sometimes does more harm than good.[/quote]

Surely, our attitude should be that we follow Mess Rules, nothing more or less? But you have to remember that Mess Rules dictate the minimum standards and it has always been acceptable for someone to wear a suit every evening in the Mess if they wish and nobody will tell you not to. Indeed, if you are unsure, there is the view that if in doubt, it’s always better to over-dress.

Arguably, rather than change attitudes to things like dress in the Mess what we need to change is people’s overall attitudes to what is or is not acceptable behaviour in a Mess in general. I give the following as examples that I have not only heard of, but also personally seen on more than one occasion: Visiting VR(T) officers getting rat faced in the bar and engaging in ‘high spirits’ which resulted in damage. Officers publicly disciplining Mess staff. Senior VR(T) officers ‘asking’ other Mess visitors to move rooms so his staff could all be together. Now whilst you could argue that some incorrect behaviour is due to a lack of knowledge, such as outdoor gear in public rooms, much of what we do wrong is passed on as ‘what the RAF officer corps does’ - such as trashing the bar. That level of ignorance needs to be addressed early in someone’s VR(T) Adult ATC career to prevent bad behaviour and break the cycle of false information.

When I was at DOM a few months ago, I found that they have gone back to RED dress some evenings, and GREEN has gone back to no jeans, shoes and collar at all other times.

Quite a change from when I was there about 2 years ago, where jeans and trainers seemed to be standard. Guess its a change of PMC and mess committee.

The problem is the changes in generation, such that younger people aren’t accustomed to “dressing properly”. When I first went to discos nn 1980 (clubs in modern parlance) blokes the baseline dress code was collar and tie and by the time I finished my clubbing days in 1991 it was smart jeans and shirts, now (if my kids are anything to go by) there are no standards. When I first started work it was jacket, collar, tie and a “hats on” with the Chief Accountant if you didn’t. Even now I invariably wear shirt, trousers and shoes as I feel you need to at least look more professional than jeans and trainers. Thus over the years expected dress standards IMO have dropped. This shift with different generations has meant in mess’ what is acceptable has changed. For better or worse is a matter of opinion. I don’t buy the argument that “they’ve had a hard/busy day at work”, I doubt that has changed enough over the years.

I tend to agree with CM in that better to over-dress, as it’s always easier to dress down and who really cares what the regulars think, I know I don’t. Although a look at the mess rules on arrival will clarify what the basline after hours public room dress is.

Also as a baby CI I was told you have been invited into what is in effect someone’s home and you should respect that.