Should airmen wearing the (issued remember) reversible softie be told to get it off?[/quote]
It’s a different scenario in my view as you generally don’t see people cutting around a Station wearing a softie jacket instead of a combat jacket (note the generally bit), softies tend to be worn in limited places such as on ranges, in the field etc. Furthermore, as you say, the softie jacket is also issued to airmen whilst the GPJ is not issued to cadets. What we are discussing, I think, is cadets wearing (their non-issue) GPJs all the time they are in blues. Technically though, the answer to your comment above is yes, they should be told not to wear them as the softie is a middle layer and is for cold conditions under the smock. I know of people who have been re-briefed by the SWO for wearing their green fleece as a top layer![/quote]
You’ve misunderstood. I’m talking about it being worn as a mid-layer, since it isn’t mentioned at all in AP1358 then, according to most people on this thread, it shouldn’t be worn at all.
It’s analogous to the GPJ and cadets because it’s an item of ‘issue’ kit that isn’t issued. They’re only handed out to people going on Ops to cold places (in the RAF - I know the RMs issue them to Nods) so lots of people buy them off eBay (if they think they can’t get away with a better commercial equivalent like my sexy Keela Beelay Advance).
Oh. And a fair few people wear them around station. Mostly movers, etc working on the airfield, but plenty of others too.
Sorry, I get what you mean, ‘issue’ as in ‘military’ kit in general vs ‘issued’ as in kit they’ve actually been officially given! But if something is worn underneath the combat jacket, it’s probably not going to be seen, so it doesn’t really matter. Arguably, the same could be said for the ‘issued’ shreddies that you get when going on ops, they’re not mentioned in AP1358 either
Those people you mention will most likely have been on Ops so will have had their softies issued and in my experience, you can pretty much wear what you want on the flight line etc.
I think the argument here is cadets wearing the GPJ (that they have neither been ‘issued’ nor are scaled for - yet) as a routine piece of kit that isn’t detailed as an official order of dress for cadets.
An interesting point which links both concurent debates…
AP1358 (RAF Regs) doesn’t authorise the wearing of ammo boots; yet they are issued to DIs (whether they’re Regt/QCS/or not) and it’s accepted that they wear them when doing drilly things.
Discuss…
A similar point:
AP818 prescribes a specific way for performing movements such as stepping sideways or change step in quick time…Halton are teaching recruits a different way of performing those movements.
The book may say one thing, but it’s not always in line with accepted practice in the service. Practice can change, APs take a long time to be updated.
Whilst there does have to be a line somewhere, I think we in the ACO should be looking to the parent service more often for guidance and precedent on certain issues.
Just do what the book says…its easier. Or should i follow Merlins footsteps and grab every badge i qualified for as an infantryman? maybe get my regimental lanyard back, where the regiments DZ patch on my greens jacket…yeah look super cool…
I’ve been reading this thread with interest and the one huge thing that junps out at me is how anal the ATC are when it comes to wtf people wear and when they wear it.
I’m sure the ATC put the ‘A’ in ‘Anal’.
The RAF - to a large degree - doesn’t give a monkey’s left bollock a lot of the time and so long as people don’t get all outrageous, no-one ever bothers pulling people up. Why then, do we have to have our people getting all bent out of shape over cadets wearing such a bloody mundane and everyday item?
That said, if the rules were re-written to permit cadets to wear the jacket, then Squadron Commanders should also be given a forcible heads-up that when the book of words says that it’s an ‘optional item’, then it bloody well means ‘optional’ and that the wearing - like stable belts - isn’t just reserved for the chosen few who hold certain levels of rank.
I think the problem occurs when people lose the ability to see what is reasonable.
Sure, Merlin above who has been there, seen it and done it would consider it reasonable to have special shoes, or a stick or whatever, but someone somewhere will then think that makes it acceptable for Johnny Big Balls to have his own cane, or his own No1s because he looks good.
Cue the regulars getting snotty because we’re trying to be the dreaded W word and then we start having problems.
[quote=“the fixer” post=5774][quote=“merlin456” post=5773]I see your point. But please remember my background which you would have seen on the previous ACC. Do you not think this is justifiable enough?
Now, I hear some of you say “But your not in anymore, leave it behind you. Your now in the ACO”
So does that mean I should leave my medals behind? My qualifications? My experience? Mudguards, hat and boots are all part of my background… if it’s any consultation, I have stopped wearing the sash as I can see some arguments for it, and the boot to shoe conversion is a step, no?[/quote]
With regards to dress you should bring with you what the ACO in it’s dress regs says you can (Medals, mudguards etc) and leave the rest.You haven’t got a leg to stand on with regards to dress otherwise.
Ex regs have loads to offer but lose credibility with the “it’s in my background” arguement.[/quote]
Sorry but this really got to me what you seem to forget is a lot of this is earned with blood sweat and tears im damn proud of what I earned as are the rest we earn it its ours why shouldnt we display it?
[quote=“zinggy” post=5926][quote=“the fixer” post=5774][quote=“merlin456” post=5773]I see your point. But please remember my background which you would have seen on the previous ACC. Do you not think this is justifiable enough?
Now, I hear some of you say “But your not in anymore, leave it behind you. Your now in the ACO”
So does that mean I should leave my medals behind? My qualifications? My experience? Mudguards, hat and boots are all part of my background… if it’s any consultation, I have stopped wearing the sash as I can see some arguments for it, and the boot to shoe conversion is a step, no?[/quote]
With regards to dress you should bring with you what the ACO in it’s dress regs says you can (Medals, mudguards etc) and leave the rest.You haven’t got a leg to stand on with regards to dress otherwise.
Ex regs have loads to offer but lose credibility with the “it’s in my background” arguement.[/quote]
Sorry but this really got to me what you seem to forget is a lot of this is earned with blood sweat and tears im damn proud of what I earned as are the rest we earn it its ours why shouldnt we display it?[/quote]
Zinggy, I’ve forgotten nothing. I’m actually at pains to see what in my post has bothered you. I respect people’s previous service I’m all for Ex regs wearing their medals & authorised qualification badges such as Mudguards and Commando daggers.
What I’m against is when anybody knowingly wears unauthorised uniform. Using previous service as an excuse to wear it is unjustified and arrogant whether it gets to you, or not.
(Mods, if you feel this is too off topic then maybe a split is needed?)
I’ve got to say I’m leaning towards the let them wear them side of this argument. They’re so widely available on the open market, if a cadet wants to wear one, let them, looks more uniform (as in the adjective not the noun) than wearing mixed dress and civvy jackets.
The argument that they get issued with Jeltex jackets so they don’t need GPJs doesn’t hold much water as we could all say the same thing.
And I also come down on the side that direct prohibition is different from an omission. The dress regs don’t say I need to wear underwear under my uniform. Does that mean I can’t? They do say quite specifically that we can’t wear MTP clothing. So that’s simple. That’s also not the same as the pink tutu argument, which is in essence reductio ad adsurdum. (Or the ACC version of Godwin’s Law.)
[quote=“the fixer” post=5943][quote=“zinggy” post=5926][quote=“the fixer” post=5774][quote=“merlin456” post=5773]I see your point. But please remember my background which you would have seen on the previous ACC. Do you not think this is justifiable enough?
Now, I hear some of you say “But your not in anymore, leave it behind you. Your now in the ACO”
So does that mean I should leave my medals behind? My qualifications? My experience? Mudguards, hat and boots are all part of my background… if it’s any consultation, I have stopped wearing the sash as I can see some arguments for it, and the boot to shoe conversion is a step, no?[/quote]
With regards to dress you should bring with you what the ACO in it’s dress regs says you can (Medals, mudguards etc) and leave the rest.You haven’t got a leg to stand on with regards to dress otherwise.
Ex regs have loads to offer but lose credibility with the “it’s in my background” arguement.[/quote]
Sorry but this really got to me what you seem to forget is a lot of this is earned with blood sweat and tears im damn proud of what I earned as are the rest we earn it its ours why shouldnt we display it?[/quote]
Zinggy, I’ve forgotten nothing. I’m actually at pains to see what in my post has bothered you. I respect people’s previous service I’m all for Ex regs wearing their medals & authorised qualification badges such as Mudguards and Commando daggers.
What I’m against is when anybody knowingly wears unauthorised uniform. Using previous service as an excuse to wear it is unjustified and arrogant whether it gets to you, or not.
(Mods, if you feel this is too off topic then maybe a split is needed?)[/quote]
sorry my fault I Didnt read your post properly after a long shift again sorry!!
Yes, they could be optional for cadets, but they aren’t![/quote]
Well I feel robbed. Can’t complain too much, did get a nice Goretex and a pair of combat boots. (I got the Goretex as my issue sheet didn’t include any foul weather wear at all. So I asked the Cpl what do I wear if it gets cold )
)