Hi, got a few questions about becoming an Adult NCO.
Basically I was in the ATC many years ago and I served in the RAF at LAC/SAC level about 10 years ago and have since become an engineer. I recently volunteered at my local Sqn to teach in my area of expertise like Principles of Flight etc. Now, my Sqn has had a number of issues and the powers that be higher up the Wing CoC are pressuring me into uniform and say they will fast track the process based on my previous service and good character despite having not completed 12 months as a CI.
When I first volunteered I viewed myself as like a civilian contractor like from Rolls Royce or BAE advising the RAF on engineering matters and having nothing to do with the military side of it per se. At the time, and now I feel like Iām too old for that and donāt particularly want to play at it having done it for real. I mean like blokes I served with are just becoming SNCOs now having worked their whole career for it and Iād feel dodgy getting that rank easily by comparison, but if it meant helping the kids out then reluctantly Iād do it.
Questions:
Will I need to go to Cranwell having got previous RAF experience? I know drill and regulations inside out and canāt really be bothered doing any kind of training all over again if I have done it before. Also I have a young family and a partner with work commitments so it would be a struggle to afford the time to complete the course there.
Are there any other courses I will need to complete before I become an Adult SNCO?
Will my responsibilities change? I mean currently I turn up on parade nights, do my teaching and help out at odd weekends. Will I be contracted to a certain number of hours and have to do more than just attend Sqn activities?
Donāt get me wrong I want to help the kids out I just canāt be bothered with any hassle that will detract from me doing what I signed up to do. If I could draw a set of blues from stores and stick my old SAC rank slides on just so my Wing could say right that Sqn has such and such in uniform I would do it. Uniform isnāt really what I signed up for but they seem desperate to get me into it. Can I keep them happy by getting in uniform and keep myself happy by not having to go on courses etc. None of this has really been explained to me.
Thereās plenty of info on here and on Sharepoint about the process of Sgt appointments so I wonāt try and duplicate. You would almost certainly need to do the SCIC at cranwell but it does cover things you wonāt have encountered in your RAF career so it wonāt be a complete waste of time for you.
Realistically though, if you donāt want to do it then say thanks very much but politely decline the offer.
Yes, sucking eggs or not everyone needs/should have the basic grounding of training as a starting point.
As obvious as it may sound a Sgt RAF is a different role to Sgt ATC, hell it is different to SAC and not just in terms of a different trade. It is a different audience and interaction. Sgt RAF has rank and authority as a manager to their Airmen. Sgt ATC is a youth worker and although has rank and authority is as much about responsibility as it is leadership and management and critically the Cadets can say no much more readily than an Airman would to his boss.
I donāt mean to belittle yours, or anyone elseās RAF/regular service but they are different roles and although there is aspects at ATF at RAFC Cranwell such as drill and uniform the child protection factors, training delivery aspects, youth work roles are unique to the ATC role that isnāt so readily gained from RAF experience
That will be wing dependant. Ours runs a pre-ATF style course in preparation. A selection of parade night evenings and/or weekends held at Wing
Squadron dependant. Arguably there are reasons for both arguments. Yes they should youāre now āmoreā responsible being in uniform. no youāll have the same responsibility, a CI is equally responsible as the OC with regard to child protection.
That said the expectation would change, as a uniform member youāre more of a role model in how to wear and behave in uniform to the Cadets. You set the Standard. as an SNCO youāll also have the expectation to pick up on disciplining Cadets, leading and managing the NCO team, and advising and correcting uniform issues.
In terms of your āActivity* Officerā responsibilities/role on Squadron I would not expect that to change
*insert sports, flying, camps, shooting, first aid, ATā¦etc role here
I have never seen it written down, but there is always a quoted ā12 hours a monthā expectation. It isnāt a ācontractā, there is no formal āsign on the dotted lineā more an expectation which can be used to suggest stepping down if not meeting it.
Assuming 2.5hrs a parade night and 2 parade nights a week it can be achieved easily in 6-7 parade nights before counting weekends.
Finally ā do it because you want to and not because people are telling you. Remember we are volunteers and shouldnāt be told want to do. A move into uniform (either flavour) should be your decision based on what you how you want to volunteer your time.
I know some former regulars who are now SNCOs and they are shocking, it is a joke the only way they would get a third stripe, and to a point it is probably true. They walt about preaching āIām an ex-regularā and forget who we serve. Others I know are exemplary examples of SNCOs.
That said your concern on being appointed the rank so readily indicates you are grounded which to me indicates how much more suitable you are for the position than others I know!
the fact that you are being pressured, that people are telling you that theyāll push you through as a āspecial caseā, and that you very obviously arenāt that keen would tell me that this is a very, very bad idea.
your roles, responsibilities and the expectations placed upon you very definately_ will_ change - you are not being put under this pressure to do something so radical purely because someone thinks theres not enough Blue about the place, you are being put under this pressure because someone wants you to fill a role that is currently going begging.
it is much, much easier to say ānoā when youāre a CI than when in uniform, and someone is relying on thatā¦
my advice would be not to do it for two reasons: firstly because its obvious that youāre not keen, and secondly because it looks to me as if someone is trying to manipulate you into doing it, and iād question whether you should put yourself in a position where you are more involved in an organisation that you know is trying to manipulate you.
tell your OC youāve talked it over with your mrs and youāre not interested - if you still get badgered, and sadly iād bet money on that happening - just donāt turn up for a month. if it happens when you go back, either go to another Sqn or just walk away from the Corps as a whole.
what you must, must do however is be absolutely clear to your OC that youāre not interested in going into uniform, you must not use weasel words or leave him/her with the impression that you either could be persuaded or that youāre looking for help in persuading your mrs. he is doubtless - like every other OC - under enormous pressure from his WHQ to recruit uniformed staff, and unless he/she gets a flat āno, no chanceā that he can send up the line, the badgering will continue.
Thereās more to the story, but for reasons of discretion and anonymity I canāt go into details here. Iām sure you know the drillā¦
Something about it seems dodgy and I get the impression as soon as I volunteered; somebody somewhere had their eyes light up and rubbed their hands together with glee!
There are other CIs with various lengths of service on the Sqn and I seem to have overtaken them in terms of preference of getting into uniform, despite the most senior CI (with 5 years of service behind them) already being in the process of applying for Adult SNCO. Another is like me; they have a background that is judged to be beneficial in getting them fast tracked through the system and I suppose they are the reserve choice should I decide not to go ahead with it.
Does anyone have experience of this āfast trackingā actually happening? Is there much precedent for this kind of thing?
i donāt, but iāve plenty of experience of being badgered to take a Commission - and promises of making it fit around my work, not being āforcedā into taking a Sqn while at the same time being a Flt Lt quicker than i could say the phrase āyou must think iām an idiotāā¦
my experience included being rung by the Wing Commander in an attempt to persuade me, with the WSO seeming to take up permanent residence at my Sqn in order to āchatā.
it was simply the most off-putting episode you could imagine - i had no intention of going into uniform when i became a CI, and i was clear, though polite, about it. in order to make it stop, and with my OC just holding his head in his hands in embarrassment, i had to stop being polite about it.
i donāt think the Wing Commander or WSO has spoken to me in the four years since - i now tend not to go to Wing things and i would certainly describe myself as āsemi-detachedā from the ACO. iām a ājustā Sqn CI, i would have been very happy to help at Wing events and go down the shooting, fieldcraft, and AT paths, and possibly even taking a commission at a much later point, but the hostility/blanking i get for merely refusing their advances means iām simply not interested in getting involved.
my mistake was assuming that people would accept that āsorry, its not something that would fit with my life at the momentā meant ānoā, and i extended that mistake by assuming that when i spoke to my OC about it and said āiām really not interested, can you have a quiet word and make it stop?ā, my OCās words would be heeded.
MrSmith From what you say, you have a background/level of expertise that fits in perfectly with your work/family life/commitment available (& desired) to the ACO.
That matches your current position as a CI. Why jeopardise your situation for what seems to work perfectly at the moment?
The polite answer to those on high is - āNo thanks at the moment, Iāll review the situation in a year or so, & let you know if/when i change my mind.ā
Unfortunately they wonāt let go and people have to get quite blunt about it. Sometimes the proverbial Anglo-Saxon is the only recourse to get the message across.
This is an awful thing to happen.However typical of the way the Corps is headed.My own wing is very short of officers and anyone who comes through the door is asked about uniform(not on my sqn mind).If a prospective new CI says he/she is interested I pass it on but I certainly dont push it and dont like it when those higher up push it on to people.The actions taken against you are quite frankly petty and I hope your OC values you highly for the hard working CI that you no doubt are.Its about time some people realised that this is and has always been a voluntary organisation and NOT the real military.
Mr Smith,
I know this reply is somewhat late and I hope you have things sorted. If I give you a quick run down on my story, it will put things into place. I left the RAF after 26 years as a sooty, the last 10 as a SNCO. Did 14 months as a CI, then back into uniform as a Sgt. Oh hang onā¦ to wear that I have to do SSIC. āWHATā I said, being a SNCO for ten years in the MOB does not count then? NO I was told, we do things differently. REALLY I said to the officer interviewing me. Having completed 2 weeks JNCO training and 3 weeks SNCO training learning at those levels how to manage and lead personnel, followed by 3 weeks learning how to instruct at the tri service DTTT course. I had been the DACLO for 9 years at my last Station so know my way around the ACO, the last three years of service being a TEST SNCO. His reply I DONT CARE you will have to do SSIC. My reply, I do not have to do anything I do not want to do anymore. Those days of being told what I am and am not going to do have gone. The ACO needs me more than I need them. Things got a bit hostile until a Wg Cdr at Cranditz got to here and over ruled the interviewing officer.
Do not let them push you into a position YOU do not want to be in. YOU have the PRACTICAL knowledge the ACO like, many can instruct aircraft topics. Like me, you have lived it, the thing that others will never be able to instruct on if they have never done the job is the background stuff i.e. fault finding and the stuff we did to rectify faults that are not in books. Good luck to you Mr Smith and CI is the best rank in the ACO, all the fun and no responsibility, come and go as you please, no mandatory time per month. finally YOU decide what avenue YOU want to go down.
There needs to be a rethink, re-branding, reinvention (or something similar) of what taking an adult uniformed role in the ATC actually offers individuals at a personal level and within this the expectations it puts on individuals in terms of being expected to turn up for things, to make it attractive and make people who do it stay for the longer term. This has not been addressed and is lprobably why the adult staff recruitment campaigns fail every time.
I donāt really think it matters what peopleās background is, there should be mandatory period of 3-5 years when people are CIs to allow them to appraise which direction they wish to take and this would remove the pressure exerted by Wing Staff who are only after bums on seats. This would remove the wannabes and walts who would exhibit a desire to go into uniform almost from the outset, before they even know what the Corps is about. It would also display to cadets that there is a difference between being a teenager in uniform in a youth organisation and being an adult in uniform in a youth organisation. If this resulted in fewer uniformed staff it would then need looking into why people arenāt going into uniform. See para 1.
Much is made of TORs, but if you are going to have a TOR and there are gaps in your knowledge/experience to fulfil the requirements of the TOR, then training/instruction needs to be readily available at the time when the person needs it.
Well I told the WSO that I had zero interest in going into uniform and made that absolutely clear to them.
Basically the last uniformed staff was invited to resign from their position for disciplinary reasons and the CIs have been running the show since then. Iāve been told all the pressure to get uniformed staff is that CIs canāt be held legally accountable for goings on on the Sqn. and the ACO doesnāt like that; they want a uniformed scapegoat if it all comes crashing down. No idea how true that isā¦ But makes sense I suppose.
We do fortunately have a good relationship with the Wing ExO and they have told us to ring them anytime about anything because by their own admittance the uniformed staff appointed to look after us are poor and we only see them every 3 months, when all they do is claim their home to duty and drink tea in the office. I guess this is a plus side to being a unit ran by CIs; because weāre not within the rank structure we can go straight to the top without waiting for the correct CoC to get their fingers out. Without having the Wing ExO looking out for us weād totally be on our own and probably even have closed.
The only real negative I can see about not being uniformed staff is that the cadets canāt march in the local carnival or Rememberance Sunday without somebody travelling through. Iām sure thereās reasons for this but I canāt understand why a senior cadet canāt shout the commands under the advice of myself with my previous military service or even join in with the local ACF detachment and their uniformed staff. This makes me angry really; I mean whatās more important? Following ATC drill regulations to the letter or respecting and remembering the lads that gave their lives for us even if the drill is not quite perfect?
Other than the above; itās all going smoothly now. We accept that uniformed staff will only come and help us when thereās something in it for them. The most senior CI hasnāt been granted an extension of service but thatās no problem as they had lost interest. The rest of us CIs do the best that we can with our resources and professional knowledge and the cadets are becoming knowledgeable in our relevant areas of expertise.
The Sqn. is a happier place now and we run it our own way because weāve been left no other choice. Itās like a throwback to a remote 1940s unit that nobody bothers about very often and we have very little in the way of modern technology but we must be doing something right because no cadets have left and weāve even recruited a few more.
Pretty close to the reality of the situation as Iāve always understood it. Which combined with the need to do the number of things required today equates to people not wanting to go into uniform.
As for the parades, why do you need uniformed staff marching? āParade drillā is probably the easiest thing in the world youāre normally controlled by a marshal for the best part and the only thing you have to do is a bit of turning and eyes left/right. Most cadet NCOs should be able to manage this.
I donāt know why you need uniformed staff for marching, or if thatās even true. Itās our local carnival soon and itās a major anniversary of the town. Weāve got a pitch for a recruitment stand but I asked about actually marching in the parade with other groups of people who walk round (like local dance groups, the Scouts, Girl Guides etc.) and was told we canāt do that without uniformed staff. So I asked how it works for Remembrance Sunday and was told the same.
Iām of the same thinking; itās very simple drill. Basically āIn column of route, quick march.ā And possibly āEyes Left/Right.ā like you say. Not even has complex as what the cadet NCO would have to do for Wing Training Day so I donāt understand why uniform staff is needed. Is that Corps policy then to require uniformed staff for parades or have I just been misinformed?
Youāll probably find that someone thinks you must have uniformed staff on the parade and is talking via their tail pipe.
When I was the only uniform on the sqn, my mum got taken to hospital the night before Remembrance, as a result I wasnāt at the parade the cdt FS took it without any dramas, in fact it was the making of him and now heās an Adult FS looking at a commission.
There would be CIs there, some of who are ex military so have knowledge of how to perform drill correctly. The cadet NCO would simply be shouting the commands under the direction of the CIs.
iād take the view that a cadet SNCO who couldnāt manage leading the Sqn participation in a wider parade ought not to be a cadet SNCOā¦
i simply canāt see how it could be considered an absolute prerequisite to have adult uniformed - or ununiformed - staff marching with the cadets. its simple stuff, theres no real decision making required, theres no safety things you need to worry about.
would it be nice? yes. an absolute requirement? not by any means.
