you can’t get a “new challenge” from a role you’ve been doing 10+ years.
I accept a new Squadron offers that, but perhaps the new challenge desired is overseeing several Sqns not just one?
If your skills were Shooting, radio, STEM, first aid related why not consider a WSO role and any promotion that goes with it?
There are Shooting officers who do as much RAFAC shooting as private so why not pick up the role which suits your personal interests and knowledge?
Perhaps you work for St Johns (I know a CFAV who does) or own a first aid business (I know another CFAV who does) would it be logical for them to pick up the WSO role as Wing First Aid Officer?
this is where i take great confusion from.
are you indicating that anyone in the role above that of a Sqn OC/Flt Lt shouldn’t be in the organisation as they are not correctly motivated to suit the organisation??
And I’d politely suggest that you can expect all you like and clearly have no idea of their diaries! I regularly exceed my VA days by a significant margin every year delivering activities related to my primary role. If I attended all events related to other SMEs roles then I’d never have a weekend to myself.
For our wing, when the Admin order is distributed, there is a list of staff and their duties attached. I’ve yet to be asked if I’m available, but have always been included in the roles.
At Wing Athletics am I expecting to see the WATTO or Wg Fieldcraft Officer there?? no.
i may see the Radio and First aid Officer as these are disciplines required for the success of the event, but not sure what a WATTO or Fieldcraft Officer can bring to the party wearing their respective hats.
If we choose something more topic specific.
Wing Shooting as a “wing event” - would i, should i, expect to see in attendance (in addition to the Shooting Officer)
Wg OC
Dept OC
WATTO
Wg Aviation Officer
Wg Band Officer
Wg BTEC Officer
Wg Child Protection Officer
Wg DofE Officer
Wg H&S Officer
Wg First Aid Officer
Wg Media Officer
Wg Radio Officer
Wg Sports Officer
Wg Training Officer
Wg STEM officer
and for good measure the WWO
+any Wing Sector Officers
that is a grand total of 16 Wing Staff attending a Wing event (more if Wing Sector Officers attend)- fantastic but…in our Wing at least, none of those are shooting qualified, certainly not RCOs or WI/SAAIs.
what am i expected to do with these extra bodies? They can’t teach, they can’t take a range, few will be able to coach or safety supervise, and although all can act as first aider that is a busy post with a dozen or more people covering that duty.
in much the same way a Wing Radio course - a Bronze Radio Operator training day. What am I supposed to do with these extra bodies?
Or a first aid course? I have my team of Staff instructors (3) to look after the Cadets training - what do I do with a handful of WSOs attending this “wing event” and should be seen to be supporting??
If these are generic/mandatory events, Wing Field Days or similiar then yes all WSOs present, but otherwise WSO can (much like all CFAVs) stick to what interests them and they can contribute to
The same can be said for me, and any of the OCs, or Sqn staff, and yet, in my wing, I know I’ll be pencilled in for an event without anybody bothering to ask me if I’m available. It seems that, for some reason, “I’m a super busy OC” isn’t an acceptable reply, but “I’m a super busy WShO/BTEC/WATTO Etc” is.
agreed - but you indicate that to do anything other than OC, once you have been OC is a disservice
agreed - but that is not how you worded it before.
I agree
i know of SNCOs who do the same to get a crown - I have even seen it in Staff nominations “notes” - attending to tick of promotion matrix requirement.
no lets get the definition straight.
CFAVs who are great OCs but fancy a new challenge, or wish to better place their skills, knowledge, experience, other into a WSO role is perfectly acceptable - if that comes with promotion so be it
CFAVs who strive for promotion for the sake of self worth, self satisfaction, or simple to lord it over their juniors be that SNCOs or Officers are not the ideal match for this organisation.
if that is what you agree with - then lets agree to agree.
In none of those examples would you expect every Squadron attending to supply a member of staff to assist in the running on an activity. Yet that’s what happens for sports events.
but that Staff member doesn’t need to be the OC - so lost as why the OCs is under the same expectation as a WSO.
Although i get the “towing the party line” and supporting the Wing events, i don’t see the need for a SME WSO to turn up to every sports event if they have nothing to offer and their time is better spent elsewhere
Exactly this, yes you need staff for things like Sports especially if you are sending Cadets., but it doesn’t need to be the OC in the same way it doesn’t need to be the Shooting Officer.
I don’t understand what you telling everyone that you’re “done know [sic]” achieves.
It just makes it look like you’re being petty and arguing for the sake of it rather than coming back with reasoned and well thought out counter retorts…
No, I agree. But in the same way that I will attend a bag pack even if I’m not needed, I’d expect staff of a higher rank, within reason, to put in an appearance and take part in running the event. Lead from the front.
IMO, Being a Sqn Ldr shouldn’t just be about being good at organising BTECs, or running first aid courses. They should be Leaders and influencers, and you can’t do that if you’re not around the people you’re there to lead and influence.
Except most of them aren’t Sqn Ldr’s, in most Wings the number of Sqn Ldr WSO’s is very small with most roles being filled by Flt Lt’s.
At the end of the day it all comes down to time and I would rather those with skills spend their time using those skills.
I would be deeply unimpressed if my Cadets couldn’t get an L98 course because the Shooting Officer had been expected to attend Cross Country purely because they were on Wing Staff.
I see no reason why we shouldn’t expect Wing staff to help at Wing events. Every year wrt Wing Athletics the JIs say x number of people needed to run it and sqn staff are guilt tripped, when there are 15 or so Wing staff the majority of whom will be more than available to do this, which removes the pressure on sqn staff. If they were getting paid for it, there’d be a queue. @steve679 Shooting is about as different to athletics (chalk and cheese), you do not need any qualifications to just help at the athletics, so why shouldn’t we expect to see those at inter-sqn athletics? If they were involved it might remind a lot of Wing staff as to why they do this, rather than a lot of “pipe and slipper” time and grandstanding behind the guise of SME.
I don’t go to shooting as I’m not qualified (anymore) nor have the inclination to be again or faff around doing WHTs for a day.
There are a lot of Wing staff far more noticeable by their absence across the board. There are some I’ve been surprised they’re still in the ATC.
Sorry to hear that - the way stuff’s filled/rotated almost sounds like it needs escalating?! (Using padre route outside chain of command, as a last resort, I guess…) Have you offered to help with a particular wing project? Plenty of people are tempted to protect their own roles but most welcome some help with the heavy lift! Know it could be a bit thankless but would increase variety and raise yr profile…
Interested this threads got onto “what wing staff should attend where”, as I’m wrestling with that a bit myself, and am trying to think “where do I add value”…
And sorry if I wind anyone up by this post!
Can’t convince me, that they shouldn’t. Sqn staff with a much smaller cohort can’t really duck out of things, like Wing staff do because as you suggest it’s not their pigeon.
We get a lot of wing staff can’t be bothered to turn up for Wing parades or staff conferences, with feeble reasons. If we don’t go to these it’s the 3rd degree, which doesn’t happen with Wing staff, as one of mates said when he didn’t go to Wing parade and no one said a thing, unlike when he was a Sqn Cdr.
Of the jobs on Wing the only 2 that truly earn their salt IMO are PEdO and in more recent years the Shooting bod.
To ensure we have a regular opportunity to review and confirm that the right people are in the right roles, that we maintain a continuous flow of new ideas, and that opportunities for career progression remain available to all members of the Organisation, appointments to WSO roles will be for an initial period of 4 years but may be extended, by mutual agreement of the CofC, to a maximum of 8 years. Exceptionally, further extensions may be approved by Comdt RAFAC.