Well aware how ignorant this question is, but what do the permanent staff actually do? All I can think of is the allocation of slots, but there must be more than that for 4 people. Are the ground crew permanent staff - and if not, who is? Not trying to imply they’re pointless, just genuinely don’t know much about the inner workings of an AEF.
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Because there are still young people out there who join us who don’t go on overseas holidays. Or have only taken a ferry.
Going on an RAF Voyager, from an RAF station, with an RAF pilot is actually a really big thing for many young people. Even if it’s doing touch and goes from Brize, doing AAR as you fly in circles over the North Sea, or just flying over your home town. These are big - but inaccessible - things to many young people.
Hands on stick time is great. But for some many that might be their first experience of actual flight.
Without wanting to give my age away, I had short haul trips in Andover’s, Doves and an HS125 some years back. Zero hands on stick time. But an amazing opportunity where we got to go into the cockpit, sit with a Nav and work through charts, put some radio stuff into practice, and get the aviation bug in a different way.
I appreciate these were different times. BUT, if the slate was clean and we got design a different version of “Air Experience Flying” and turning the whole cadet aviation experience on its head, I personally would place more value on taking a car full of cadets on this experiences as a group for 60mins, than I would, have individuals doing 25min sorties using the current AEF model.
I would, however, ensure that we retained scholarships for those that want to pursue the Hands on stick time…
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How does that work legally/risk wise when Holdies finishing EFT only have around 25 flying hours, don’t have ‘wings’ and are therefore not yet RAF pilots?
To answer (possibly) one small part of this: the rules used to be that you were post-BFJT (at least for the FJ stream) with a positive recommend for AEF flying from your Sqn boss, so more like 250hrs+ (at the time).
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Because any flying is better than no flying! Ask any cadet who still hasn’t had a flight after 2 or more years service. A Voyager doing routine training/tanking flights has 291 empty seats in the back.
5 circuits with cadets in the back and in one HALF DAY, they have flown more cadets than your AEF does in a YEAR! I know that is a simplistic view, but you get the idea.
Inspiration to join the military is not mutually excusive to Air Experience Flying in the Tutor sense. 10 years ago I had a cadet fly in the back of a King Air out of Cranwell on a 2.5 hour low level nav exercise. That cadet is now flying Rivet Joint. We’ve had nothing like this since.
Which leads me on to this. When was the last time a cadet flew back seat in a Hawk?
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The smiles on the faces of the cadets I took on Voyager and the excited call outs as each Typhoon popped into view? The photos and stories they went back with that very few other people in the world can say they took and experienced personally?
How about the time they all got to spend seeing the view from the front office, chatting to a member of the crew about what the pilots were doing as they were doing it, what his job was, what life was like, what was going on in the fast jets and what those guys were up to while we circled around at a relatively leisurely pace?
Heck, even I, (quite a bit older than the cadets) was somewhat awestruck at actually seeing out of the front of an aircraft of that type while airborne for the first time. It’s really not the same as a window seat on easyJet.
Sometimes in life it becomes difficult to reconcile that what has become or is considered mundane can be amazing and inspiring to those unaccustomed.
10 rounds on the range can thrill a teenager, but be another day at the office and perhaps even an inconvenience for a combat vet. Similar thing for flying, perhaps?
I’ve also flown in a Chinnie, maybe I wasn’t close enough to the rear, but honestly the 4 hours in Voyager was a better experience overall than those 20 minutes defying physics.
We mustn’t overlook the power of the basic experiences because something else is “better”, when “more” of any form should be the focus.
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There are lots of permanent staff where I am, engineers, admin staff etc but in this case the 4 we are talking about are the QFIs on the UAS’. We do not have an OC AEF at this time.
All Holdies on an AEF have ‘wings’. They also have to have a certain amount of hours and are usually on hold for their OCU. Something to bear in mind is many have been in the RAF for some time. Our last one has been in for 8 years and completed Phase 3 of helicopter training. They were holding with us for 18 months before going to their OCU. Non-brevet pilots do not fly on an AEF however they may be tasked with admin roles on a UAS.
Totally get it. Lots of pilots on AEFs are, or have been, regular service pilots whether it be RAF, Navy or AAC flying lots of different platforms. As an example, we have previous Herc, A400, Chinook, F3, GR4, Harrier, Sea King, Lynx, Jaguar, VC10, Phantom, Nimrod, C17, Hawk, Apache and Puma pilots to name a few. Granted they no longer fly them but there is still a wealth of experience there.
Trust me, I get it. Apart from my son only having 1 AEF trip in his 7 years as a cadet, I was an ATC (as it was then) Squadron Commander for over 10 years. It’s as frustrating for me as it is you. I am trying to give you an insight as to the issues some AEFs are experiencing that you don’t see. I’m happy to take questions about it and I’ll answer them as best I can, but this isn’t a place to vent your frustrations.
If I might make a suggestion, the next time you’re at your local AEF ask some questions that you’d like answering. Why are there issues? What happens here? How does this work? I’ll happily show you around our station and what happens where and how it all works..and where it doesn’t. You can then explain it better to your peers.
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It is still the ATC. Brassard and Cap Badge says so. RAFAC is made up of both the ATC and CCF(RAF).
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Think he’s referring to the policy/cultural changes since he was an ATC Sqn OC?
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Sorry i was being lazy and generalising. i mean for the Tutors/the ground crew etc, flying AEF is not what there RAF have them for, it is not the bread and butter, or their raison detre - AEF/Flying Cadets comes as a second or even third priority (recent examples include the loss of AEF flying for some to accommodate training for Ukraine pilots) - this is not me complaining, simply highlighting that for reasons well understood and known, our “best” opportunity to get powered flying is subject to factors well outside of HQAC’s control
this has always been requested, and appears “simple” - however take a look at the Musters of late and it shows how viable that is when the A/c come to the Cadets - airframes become unserviceable either before or during the event or are called up for “operational” reasons so never released.
However, i do feel it should be easier than it is and in an “ideal world” (as this is the purpose of the thread) it could and indeed should be an opportunity the Air Cadets should make the most of.
While routine scheduled flights to Cyprus and Falklands would be impractical due to the duration (and even demand on the seats) there are bound to be other training flights which can be readily predicted.
take a look on Flight Radar near BZN and there is often a C17 or A400M doing circuits once a week which could readily see 20 Cadets sat in the back of it for the 90minute flight.
One issue however is the post code lottery that exists. the likes of Wales or Cornwall have limited opportunity to take advantage of such opportunities, whereas Oxford, Bristol and Cheltenham could readily get to BZN for a 0900 briefing and 1000 TO, back to the JRM for lunch and home for afternoon tea and medals…
likewise the same from Shawbury with the Juno and Jupiters (i presume there are seats in the back of these?)
To show this has happened in the past, The Queen’s birthday flight used to be a regular thing i would see on FB, either through official channels or a friend who is local enough to make the journey to BZN. anything that could take passengers, was filled with Cadets and so got not only the experience of flying, but saw formation flying too
i echo that comment, but i did raise that on the second reply to the OP…!
here i am thinking the AEF/2FTS passed the numbers to Rgn and it was they who allocated slots to Wing, and then a WGAvO distributes those to Squadrons.
i am in ignorance that the AEF “commit” to flying X sorties per week/month/quarter which is set out 6months in advance, fed up the CoC and comes down the RAFAC CoC…
RAF100?? (so 2018)
There were 10x Cadets flying with the Red Arrows into RIAT. that is the last time i know of it happening but always assumed the Hawk flight was still reserved for the “best cadet” on RAF Valley camp?
The RAF plan these things quite a long way in advance; our date out of BZN was set months away.
How about a lottery system from each station?
The other thing I would like to see, is provision for alternative activities in the event of AEF cancellation. Come along anyway, watch a flight briefing, spend time with ground crew talking about the airframe and readiness checks, have a pilot talk through navigation and plotting charts, have an air traffic sim, flight sim with cadets on the radio to each other, stuff that most squadrons can’t do (at least accurately or well) but is still relevant to experiencing aviation.
CFAV and cadets currently waste a day, and the organisation wastes vehicle rental and fuel costs, every time there’s a cancellation. If the organisation wants value for money, we need to ensure an outcome where there’s already overhead.
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you are Gordon Moulds and i claim my £5
he, of former CAC fame (amongst other hats he wore during his career) had almost this idea.
his son, an Air Cadet, travelled many miles on a coach for a AEF experience only for it to be cancelled upon arrival, for weather or otherwise and so turned back…Gordon saw this as a waste of time and money and had a vision for “Regional Activity Centres”
these centres based on the same site as an AEF, and in the case of a cancellation, would be available for the coach load of Cadets to utilise and make the 3 hour round trip journey worthwhile.
what these RACs would have i forget now, likely a radio room, and flight sim room, possibly an air rifle range too - and so would worse case give the cadets something from the day other than the experience of a 3 hour coach journey, and at best a new badge, or sign off in their F3822s (anyone remember those?) because of a new qualification had been achieved.
a grand idea, and to my knowledge there are a handful of RACs around. however none are used in the many indicated above, often the AEF escorting CFAV are not qualified to run a rifle range, or teach radio or know how to operate the flight sim - it required too many stars to align, the right staff with the right qualifications, and the right permissions, to actually work (our local RAC needs a familiarisation course (half a day induction) before you can even consider booking it) of course nowadays with the likes of SMS events, working dynmaically isn’t possible.
even if on a coach of 25 Cadets and the 5 Staff everyone was at the same level to consider a blue marksmanship on the Air Rifle, and between the 5 CFAVs there was an RCO and SAAI, (and at least one of them had permission to sign out the keys) running a range for a few hours with no notice wouldn’t be possible
that said, your suggestion is much more realistic - if only because the Cadets and pilots are all in the same boat - if we cannot get the two in the plane at the same time, why not get them in a classroom instead and discuss “pilot nav” or radio procedure, or climb over the aircraft and learn more about the aircraft or the route to AEF pilot
but that said, and @Scrounger can offer a direct opinion here, if the detail is cancelled, and there is no flying on offer, most are ready to bin the day off ASAP and get back to “life”
Again, I can only offer what we do if flying is delayed or cancelled. We try and arrange a Hangar/ aircraft visit with one of the pilots so they can explain how everything works. We also try and arrange a visit to Air Traffic however, we are only a small station and if there’s no Tutor flying there isn’t that much else to see. We do have a flight sim but it can only be used by those qualified to put cadets in it, sadly I’m not one of those. Many of our Flight Staff Cadets are though.
I agree with the RAC and many moons ago one was planned to be located on our station however it wasn’t and was located at the nearby army camp.
In fact when I was a WSO, I arranged for RAFAC to use our low ropes as long as there was a member of staff qualified to use it. As far as I know the RA is still there however it’s something that needs to be looked into.
We aren’t as flush with engineers as a frontline station and as they work for Babcock, there’s the issue of RA and H&S to take into account.
If flying is cancelled prior to flying, we do try and give as much notice as possible however if it’s cancelled on the day we try and accommodate as much as possible as per the above. Cadets are invited to stay as long as they like but many disappear pretty much straight away.
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This underpins the lunacy of the org - an actual RAF, AEF pilot, who’s job it is to fly cadets, can’t operate a simulator, yet some cadets can because they attended a pointless course. Absolutely bonkers!
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Years ago there was a ban on A/C taking up Cadets if any sort of ‘Emergency’ was going to be simulated …..I think it came as a knee jerk after the Chipmunk fatality? when he had decided to to demonstrate a practice turn back or something …….. cant remember all the details, but it was something like that!
That instantly cut probably 90 % of the opportunity flights as on most of them they practised losing an engine or some other sort of emergency! ……so no Cadets!
….not sure if thats still the case? …..but hopefully not, and it was a long time ago!
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No allowed to practice the following in the Tutor on AEF sorties:
Spinning, incipient spinning, EFATO, PFLs into fields, stalls in the turn, practice emergencies. No cadet handling below 1000ft AGL
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A suggestion @Cab , why not allocate 2-3 holding pilots, (who have completed MAGS), from the huge pool to each AEF.
As and when required, they ‘teach’ pilot nav, radio etc. or conduct station tours.
I would suggest that for general Service experience & possibly morale (holding is already a bit of a kick in the nuts!), that there are far better holding options for baby pilots to be allocated.
Just out of curiosity, what are the typical holds?
27 pilots are in the post-Elementary Flying Training (EFT) hold
(compared to 41 a year ago and 106 two years ago). Of these 27, there are four Fast Jet pilots (waiting three-months), 22 Multi Engine pilots (waiting 8-12 months) and one Rotary Wing pilot (waiting 2 months).
50 pilots are holding ahead of their front-line Operational Conversion Unit (OCU)
training. These comprise of five Fast Jet pilots (waiting 4-6 months), 18 Multi Engine pilots – nine will start OCUs in Q4 (waiting between 4-10 months) – and 14 Rotary Wing pilots, whose thirteen to twenty month holdover is due to Chinook OCU delays and Puma deletion.
https://committees.parliament.uk/publications/51208/documents/284149/default/#
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I didn’t realise so much progress had been made with addressing backlogs in pilot training.
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