External individuals shooting on an RAFAC range

Query.

I recall there being written in a PAM that under certain circumstances and set conditions, external people could be allowed on to a range and live fire for demonstration or good will visits.

For example, basically it allowed a non trained person to use a TS25 range under 1 to 1 supervision to experience air rifle shooting. It even allowed use of L98A2 under 1:1.

I cannot find this in any of the PAMS, does anyone know of what I am talking about?

Basically, I want to run an open day, inviting the local scout group (who have 150 plus scouts) and hopefully poach a few good ones!
By offering a few top level activities on an open day

Air rifle would be one such example. To get around the Iwt time constraint I remembered this. But cant now find it!

Any help. Thanks.

Obviously I’m not doing anything without sign off etc etc.

It is in PAM21 but that’s obvs out of scope for us now we have our own CTR.

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I know the army do it, it’s not something I’ve ever seen done by cadet forces though.

I’d guess PAM21/PAM21C (or whatever it’s called now) would be where it is, if it’s so written?

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Use of Cadet Weapon Systems by Civilians
4-47. CFAVs are not p e rmi t t e d to pl an o r conduct live firing for civilians.
In addition CFAV are not to act as safety supervisors, nor participate in the butts or
console duties in anyway on ranges conducted for or by civilians. If an activity is to be conducted, such as an open day, during which any form of live firing activity is planned, then the local Cadet Training Team (CTT) or suitably qualified reserve or regular force personnel, are to plan, conduct and supervise the range. The range is to be planned and conducted in accordance with Pam No. 21. Advice can be sourced from HQ SASC or OC SASC TAG as required.

That is the rule for the ACF, I assume the same rule applies to the RAFAC.

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In addition to the comments below the Scouts would need to ensure the range meets their rules, which might preclude the use of a Cadet one. And they would need their own leaders present.

It’s not allowed, nor is RAF AC use of civilian ranges.

As redowling mentioned, PAM 21 has an allowance for regulars to do this but that’s not for us.

Edit to include reference: CTR Para 4-47.

I’ve never understood this. I used to go to go pistol shooting with a couple of mates and the rules on those ranges indoor and outdoor were exactly the same as any “military” range I ran or had been on.
I would happily take cadets to a range and have them fire, but for some reason that has always eluded me, we can’t. When I’ve asked why not, as above, it’s been because it says you can’t, which is not a valid reason. It has the potential to open shooting as a sport and competitive sport to boot, to cadets and not just something you might do in the cadets if the stars align.

It’s not the running of the range which is the issue, it’s the training of personnel to operate the weapons and the risk management and investigation procedure if something should go wrong. There is too much that isn’t controlled about the range, people, weapons and practice.

The MOD insures shooting based on the SST if it’s not in place then neither is the insurance.

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Ok thanks all.
Looks like it was in pam 21-c, now covered by CTR.
It’s not allowed but im glad for the info.

Got to check out ideas, else no opportunities would occur! But on this occasion it’s a no go.

Ney bother.
Cheers.

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It makes you wonder how anything outside the all wonderful military, operates? I can’t imagine the people running non-military ranges don’t have to do courses and become qualified, have insurance, inspections etc and ensure people adhere to the rules when they are on the range. I know the latter happens.
As I said the ranges I went to with my mates ran exactly the same, in terms of protocols and you were required to wear some form of ear protection before it became so on any range I fired on with cadets.
But we are stuck with rules designed to prevent rather than allow and promote interest.
I think it’s supposed SST that has resulted in the repetition of WHTs, which cannot be regarded as a positive, when everyone I know who is involved in shooting says it takes up too much time for no real gain.

Is there scope to set up a paintball range?

I’ve been to a few fetes where the local paintball club have set up some targets in a a 12x12, with a “firing point” set up at the entrance, and punters pay a few pounds for 10 shots.

Civilian Range Qualifications
1-37. When MOD personnel shoot as a member of a civilian club they are not “on duty”. They cannot use MOD Range Qualifications to plan, conduct or supervise live firing in a civilian club, likewise they are not permitted to use civilian range qualifications to plan, conduct or supervise cadet MOD live firing activities.

I love the way the phrase “civilian club” is used in almost a derogatory way.
So if you take cadets to a club, they can shoot as long as no one uses any MOD qualifications. That’s fine as we don’t have anyone with such qualifications, so we’d need to have the club do it.

It’s used in a completely matter-of-fact and unemotional way. What you read in to it says far more about you than it does about PAM21.

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It is as well to remember that the Safe System of Training was put in place to stop people, who think they know better, from running activities that are potentially dangerous and could result in a serious accident or death of a cadet.

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However, depending on their military qualifications, the NRA will normally accept them
as direct equivalency to gain a civilian RCO “ticket” - admin fee involved.

That is very interesting, I wonder if the NRA would extend this offer to Cadet Force personnel? Because the application form specifically uses the term current serving members of HM Forces (applications will also be accepted up to six months after leaving the Services).

As I’m also an NRA RCO instructor, my initial thought was “yes” - assuming CFAV LR RCO.

Just spoken to NRA Trg Manager = confirmed; must be LR though. Just use the same form.

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