I’ve seen multiple instances of risk assessments coming in for approval with W3W being downloaded listed as a control, when I’ve asked the supervisors the question - “how do you plan to use this”, there is no answer given. In too many cases it’s being shoved into training sessions because it’s “the buzz about town”, rather than it’s actually a useful tool.
For me, I’d rather have a Grid Reference that is instantly useable, rather than something I have to mess around converting through various apps. In an issue requiring help, writing down 3 words, to convert to type into the app, to convert to Lat/Long via Google maps, to copy and paste into something else to get a grid reference, is not efficient use of time, and I would ask the question how anyone justifies that level of faff, when cadets could just as easily pull up OS locate, give you a grid reference, and that’s it. I had to call MRT out a few weeks ago, the group gave me a grid reference via OS locate, which I found on my map - so I knew where they were, and passed to MRT. It was accurate enough to get a helicopter and MRT on site with no issue. That situation would not have been improved at all by using W3W, and I can’t think of any single scenario where using W3W would help get help quicker than a grid reference, in fact every scenario I imagine hep is delayed by use of W3W. Worth mentioning the MRT guys I talked to do not like W3W.
that isn’t a fault with W3W that is a fault with the leaders…
as stated above, it would appear that the W3W offers a Google Lat/Long coordination which is usable.
see my comments above - if someone is promoting that route (W3W) they have either accepted that “faff” or have a solution to it.
I can see you are not a fan of W3W - personally i have never used it but i can see the benefit - is there an obvious benefit over other systems? not really, yes it is more accurate (3m Vs 100m) but I never need to be that accurate.
it all goes back to how persons wish to operate.
Some people prefer to use cash only, some card only. Some only bank in branch, others online only
Some like IE others only use Chrome.
Some only use Apple, others use Android (mobile) or Windows (PC)
Each have their merits but also their limitations
it is clear you are in the camp of Grid references over W3W but that doesn’t mean the W3W system doesn’t work or isn’t fit for purpose. for you yes it creates more work given how you operate and deal with the information, it is in no way either fool proof or faultless (neither is grid references) but providing people are correctly set up for that method, i can see it has its uses.
How are you checking they match? Great you’ve got a Lat/Long now, but how does having a Lat/Long help you as the supervisor working out where the group is? I can’t plot Lat/Long on a map? So it would require some kind of conversion? Looking at a Google Map that shows me a patch of green with a red pin dropped on it doesn’t allow me to confirm anything.
One thing you could do is copy and paste into a grid reference convertor, or into OS Maps app for example. I Just tried this in fact, but I couldn’t copy and paste out of the Google Maps box containing the Lat/Long, so had to manually type it into OS Maps - which definitely was a faff. This did then provide me a location on an OS Map which was close to where I am (no closer than a grid reference).
If nothing else this thread has taught me a useable way to translate W3W into a Grid Reference.
Usable only in that it’s more widely understood, but having a Lat/Long is largely useless to a supervisor with a map, unless it’s converted to a grid reference. If I look on Google Maps with a Lat/Long I see a green patch of ground with a red pin. If I’m in the field trying to get to a group, having a long string of numbers which I can’t pick out a location on my map is pointless no? I could enter into something that will convert to a grid reference, but then I am converting through 3 formats to end up with something I could have got straight off the bat.
I take your point. I would be keen to hear from anyone who has a workable way of using W3W…?
I should add folks. That SARLOC (the system used by Mountain Rescue to send a text to a phone to get a location), is available to us through here: https://www.facebook.com/sarlocDofE/
It’s a good option, since the cadets receive a text, click a link, and it provides you with their location. MRT have been using it with success for years.
As responsive staff to a cadet activity, W3W is very much only possible on your device - with batterys and a internet signal. Grid Ref just requires a soggy map… and if the cadets are trained like they should be then its win win.
I am a fan of tech but this seams to relient on other systems!
Well, I have Google maps open on my phone, showing the Lat Long. I can see where that pin is on that map. I can then open OS Locate, and compare the GR they also sent me, and see if they are close. I;m not expecting to the metre accuracy, because GRs can’t give me that, but it lets me know if one of the data sets is massively different to the other.
I can also use Bing maps, (or, if I’m in the middle of nowhere, ask someone else to do it, and have that converted to their OS layer. The biggest limitation on Bing’s OS layer is that it’s only available on desktop.)
Additionally, I can copy the Lat long (In it’s decimal format,) into the OS Maps app, and that will locate the same place. (I can’t then convert that into a GR using the OS Maps app, but that might just be because I have the free version of the OS Maps app?)
It’s all about knowing the limitations of any one system, and as WelshML points out, all are useless when signal dies. However, in this hypothetical we seem to be assuming that everyone has signal and data, and a method of passing that information, be it phone or RT.
Last thing from me then I will pipe down (promise).
Let me role play a scenario for you…
Weather is honking it down, you are out on the hill walking towards your Gold DofE group who are in the area nearby.
Scenario 1: You get a message from the group who are lost in the clouds, with a member of the group who are feeling unwell. They provide you a W3W reference of their location. You pull out your phone to put in the W3W location, but you are struggling because its soaking, and typing on a phone is nightmare in the rain. But eventually you do this, hit the Google Maps button and get a Lat/Long. You now need to move the Lat/Long from Google Maps into something that gets you a grid reference (because Lat/Long isn’t readable on your OS Map), Google Maps won’t let you copy and paste from the app (I tried, might work for someone else) so you start flicking between apps to copy the Lat/Long into OS Maps app (assuming this has a signal you can get a grid reference), unfortunately you don’t have a data signal, and also don’t have an app from converting Lat/Long to grid references. You are now sat with 2 references, neither of which are compatible with your map, you could be 5 mins from your group, you could be further, but you’ve no way of knowing. Options include: ringing someone with data signal to do it for you, press on along the route, or trying to find a data signal. If you did have a data signal you could get a grid reference and move to the group. Worth mentioning you could summon help with the information you have at this point however.
Scenario 2: You get a message from the group who are lost in the clouds, with a member of the group who are feeling unwell. They provide you with a grid reference, you check the map and see they are 7 minutes from you. You get to them 7 minutes later, and can formulate next steps with the group.
Yes there are lots of examples of the exercise above that end differently, but I wanted to try and illustrate that more links in your chain, is like more knots in a rope - it gets weaker the more knots there are.
I take the W3W, I type it into the app, click navigate, select Google Maps, get given the Lat Long data, I then copy the decimal version of the Lat Long, and copy that into OS Maps. (I just did it, and it works, I’ll copy the image in a mo…)
I can then use OS maps to create a GR and compare it to my map. (Thank you for pointing out how to do that, it works well.)
Your mistake is the same others keep making. I agree with you that W3W is not, on it’s own, as easily usable as GR, my plan would be to teach the cadets to use both, I would then use W3W as a check on their GR.
As I keep saying, it’s about knowing the limitations of the technologies available, and factoring in the ability of the cadets, I then have in built redundancy
If they have OS locate on their phone, it’s nothing to do with ability. I think I’m with @Threaders on this one.
The multiple steps required just add in additional opportunities for error and faff in a situation when you just need to see where they are on an OS map so you can plan your subsequent course of action. Give me a grid from OS Locate, I can see where you are on my map, right - here’s the plan.
In this example, to get the copiable Lat Long, you swipe up, and hold down on where it says 53.1011890, -4.0282640 That’s a universal format for Lat Long, which is usable in OS Maps.
it is possible to copy the lat/lng from Google Maps (swipe up, and tap&hold the coords)
I do agree with @threaders that verifying the location between apps is not always straightforward. I’ve magically changed my current location, to somewhere we could reasonably have a Gold group, which gives me the 3 screenshots below. The Google Maps one isn’t particularly useful to see if the location is the same (unless, @Baldrick, you just mean to make sure “the same general area”, to make sure that words haven’t been misheard?)
Of course, I’m not suggesting that you can use the Google Map or W3W map at those levels, hence why i’ve been working throughout this thread to find ways to copy that data into a usable format to use it elsewhere.
The other advantage to using this systems is that I can take the W3W data, chuck it into Google Maps, and then use that to get driving directions to get them closer to the point. In a lot of instances, the assessor may not be within walking distance, and will need to drive, in which case, being able to quickly convert data into a format Google Maps can read, is really useful. (And no, I’m not suggesting getting all the way everywhere by vehicle, I don’t own a Series One.)
GRs are great at what they do, but difficult to convert out to other formats.
It’s all about having tools in your toolbox, and, crucially, knowing how they all work, the limitations of each, and how to use the information they provide you with.
One of the great things about this thread is learning how to manipulate different forms of data, provided by free apps, quickly and accurately.
The advantage then, is that I am learning, so that I can teach the cadets, and other staff how to do all of this.
It could be quite a fun lesson for them too, because they can all do it on their phones in class.
I’ve just found a free app called “Compass - Professional”. You can type a W3W reference into the bearing section, and it will convert to a GPS, it’s not designed for that purpose but its very efficient!
I can imagine. For them, GRs would be useless 90% of the time.
In Bristol, one of the big challenges for policing is the Bristol-Bath Railway path. It’s the old railway, converted to a cycle path/footpath. Because it used to be a railway, it is very separate from anything else, like a self-contained environment, with just junctions connecting it to other footpaths or roads.
It’s also a prime location to assault and rob people. Criminals can hide in the undergrowth, particularly in the lowered culvert sections, ambush pedestrians, or put up wires for cyclists to crash into, and then when the victim called the police, they really struggled to locate them, because it’s really disporientating to know where you are in relation to the roads.
In that circumstance, W3W is a better resource for the police than GRs anyday.
