They could have told him to, but there is nothing they can actually do to make him comply. Failing an entire group because of one person is ridiculous, and if it happened I could see someone saying retraining is in order.
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If they did speak up, and he still refused and was being generally ignorant then fair enough. But Iâve been involved with a Gold expedition where the whole group failed even though the actions were caused by a few members of the group. After a discussion it was decided that all members knew what happened was wrong, and no one spoke up about it.
Iâm on 2 minds on it.
Others shouldnât be punished for the actions of one
BUT
This is exactly what happens during military phase 1 or 2 training on key tests, so it could be preparing young people to experience that. My entire squad was backsquaded during my P2 for the actions of a few individuals because it demonstrated âa lack of team cohesionâ - key words we see in the 20 conditions.
Is this still the case & is this written down anywhere?
Itâs a classic in the ATC to follow a long established rule only to find out that it was got rid of years ago but was communicated badly so no-one knew of the change.
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Talking about the now âoldâ 20 conditions, yes. They mostly refer to âThe team must do Xâ. Not the individual. Some specifically say participants, and those are the ones where I would feel okay failing a single person.
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Which condition is that? The conditions donât say âmust be a cohesive teamâ, which is lucky as it would be a very ambiguous condition. What the conditions do say is that:
âParticipants must behave responsibly with respect for their team members, Leaders, the public and animals.â
If participant X does something wrong, then the team can advise that they correct it, but they canât pin them down and force them to do anything, as that would also violate this condition.
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This is the problem, if you were a member of permanent staff and the assessor had failed a group at great expense without really understanding the 20 conditions how would you be able to side with the assessor?
Can anyone tell me the point of the DoE scheme expedition these days? It now seems like an industrialised box-ticking exercise to me: aiming to develop leadership, teamwork and all that through the medium of the expedition etc etc, rather than generate any interest in the outdoors and the skills needed to live there comfortably.
I did my own Bronze DoE expedition as a member of the Boys Brigade, before I was a member of the ATC, and the former youth organisation would train us boys to complete the BBâs own Expedition Badge programme first, before we were told of the DoE exped training. The BBâs award was pitched at training us to be walkers/backpackers first, with a view to adding mountain skills later (a Gold DoE Exped done by older boys on my BB Company was done in Snowdonia, for example). On gaining the BBâs award, then we would join in the DoE programme; that award counting as the DoE training expedition.
One advantage of that two phase approach is that if young people donât enjoy camping expeditions, they donât have to continue on with it: I donât want people in the hills who loath outdoor life, and just put up with it to get a better pre-Uni CV.
The point is to get you to go and do something without adult support. It isnât about getting to love the outdoors, though that is a bonus if it happens. The problems arise when some organisations (cadets being a supreme offender here IMO) try to mollycoddle the participants throughout the expedition with too much input a the planning stages, too much presence at the campsite and too much visibility during the expedition. When that happens, it begins to lose value.
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Schools are the absolute worst when it comes to this. The number of school groups that Iâve seen where they arenât self sufficient at all with staff setting all the tents up and then running an evening programme.
I also take very real issue with people treating DofE as if itâs just about the Expedition, itâs one section out of four all of which are equal.
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I did hear one suggestion about having to complete one other section before the exped but unfortunately Iâm finding interest in D of E is generally declining.
Our last wing DofE weekend was only open to those who had already completed all other parts and just waiting on the expedition. Make of that what you willâŚ
I donât agree with any of that either.
Sounds like someone was looking to push a load of awards through for the Sir Roger Austin sword.
People should be allowed to do the sections inthe order that they wish, afterall they have until they are in their 20âs to finish. We just shouldnât be treating DofE likes itâs Expedition and some other bits.
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You have to ask, to render an assessment of what where when and why, you have to understand the conditions etc otherwise itâs just null and void as a decision.
Weâre drifting into âtodayâs helicopter parenting vs when I was a kid we were told to go out and play with your friends and be back for tea-timeâ territory here. 
Youâre right: Iâve supervised a few DoE expeds and some are mass participation industrialised box ticking, with too many groups and too many staff, whereas others are with only one training or qualifying group involved.
In our day the adults would usually dump you off in the country, then theyâd drive off to a country pub near the overnight campsite, and carry out a cursory check of how you were getting on in the evening.
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That is exactly how all of my expeds went. Iâd hate to have camped on the same site as the staff.
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My Gold DofE exped happened with the Corps in 2004. We kayaked the River Wye for 4 days, Minimal map reading needed (just to work out which riverside field we were kipping in and when the nearest pub was) and going with the flow of the water.
It was lovely, but looking back Iâm not sure it should have countedâŚ
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Itâs all down to the interpretations of the 20 conditions. Some assessors think buying an ice cream breaks the self sufficientcy rules. Others would be fine with that, and fine with you going to the pub on the eveningâŚ
This sort of interpretation may well be whatâs gone wrong in the situation weâre talking about here!
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Going back to the original post, has the Regional DoE officer enough extensive and current experience of assessing expeditions in the field, to come to a determination that the Wing assessment team in question were deficient in their actions?
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1st step⌠carve own canoeâŚ
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