Is a sqn minibus, bought with sqn funds, an MOD asset that requires the driver to be in possession of an FMT600?
Nope! Nor do your drivers need to read MT orders, sign an FMT 103 etc etc.
Nope.
Nope indeed, but you do need insurance 
and depending on that insurance may depend on the need for a D1 licence
(although some WSOs insist upon it regardless)
All drivers now need a D1 licence,
the permit 19 scheme no longer makes it an alternative to a D1.
You can drive a minibus up to 16 pax seats on a B license not for hire or reward.
The devil is in the details.
I donât think a permit 19 has ever been an alternative to a D1, it is a means round the ânot for hire or rewardâ limitations insofar as the ATC operates SOVs.
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You do not require a D1 licence if you are not driving for hire or reward. Also despite HQAC having wet their pants for no reason and stopped issuing Permit 19 you can still get them directly from DfT. nothing has changed.
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You can always go for a Torneo or similar and just drive it on a normal licence.
Unless you have a large squadron which regularly transports more than 7/8 cadets, a minibus just becomes a burden for older staff who donât need any additional bits.
up to 6 weeks ago I would fully agree with everything you sayâŚ
I will let you know what the outcome is⌠the police are taking a totally different view!
I have always been under the impression that is you do not have a D1 licence, you do not drive a 16 seat bus. The link above clearly says that this is wrong. I would be very reluctant to drive a vehicle that was not on my licence.
This whole section hinges around what is hire and reward. If a sqn is not an operator then no need for permit 19. If we are an operator then we cannot drive a D1 licence. There seems to be a large grey area and much interoperation in this matter. If we all have D1 and are not hire and reward then we do not need a Permit 19
It is greyer than that - as we charge a subscription to our cadets for the privilege of taking part in squadron activities, with the associated benefit of getting a ride in the minibus. If that is considered âhire or rewardâ (as it is more than simply covering of costs) then simply having a D1 doesnât cover you and realistically everybody should need a P19
Doing the activities has nothing to do with subs.
You donât as a squadron have to charge subs. If you raised enough each year to cover costs through fund-raising or money bequeathed, then you would not need to charge subs. Which negates that argument.
If you specifically charged for journeys, ie ÂŁ5/head for say athletics, then you could say potentially there was hire and reward. But most SOV journeys are part of something else, which has a cost, but the cost covers the whole activity and in my experience fuel is the only cost redirected for minibuses, the rest goes back to the cadets pro rata or into sqn funds, it doesnât go into our pockets. Or the costs come out of squadron funds and as these are never ring-fenced to that extent, no one could really prove you were being rewarded for the journey.
only for the Air Cadets - it is not valid for my Scouting friends for instance. being not for âhire or rewardâ they carry on regardless.
although true it goes deeper than this.
if the passengerâs eligibility to travel is based on being part of a club/group and being a member of said club/group is based on subs then that counts as âhire and rewardâ
which negates my above comment about Scouts, Church groups and anyone else operating a group 16 seat Minibus. - this is where it gets grey between with and without a permit, with and without âhire or rewardâ
HQAC and certainly out Wing have been very strict - D1 or not even bother.
sorry, HQAC have been poor on this matterâŚ
it was from there we got the P19âs and have stopped issuing them recently pending a review,
reviewing what? that we are using them wrong?
if that is the case and there is any confusion then they should be informing sqns urgently,
what happens IF there is a crash in which the CFAV is hit but turns out they are uninsured???
we issue stop orders in this organisation for crap but we dont seem to do it for the big things that can affect peoples lives and families!
As I understand it the insurance is separate to the licensing.
insurers cans state must be over X age and do hold D1.
or they can state anyone with a B license held for Y years - depending on the operation of the vehicle.
the legality of the use based on status of the vehicle with/without permit would be questioned rather than a insurance pointâŚ
Strange. My wing have never mentioned it at all that I remember.
Once again Wings are making things up or people who do not know what they are talking about are unable to read the regulations.
DfT Guidance on Permit 19
So basically a Permit 19 is an exemption from the to hold a PSV Operators Licence when providing transport for a charge and under specified conditions provides an exemption for the PCV part of the licence.
So Section 19 covers minibuses with upto 16 passenger seats (plus the driver) you can use these vehicles for your members as long as you are doing so without a view to profit from the journeys.
Weâve covered all this at length many times, now where people are getting hung up is that the guidance goes on to say:
However this is being misinterpreted, what this actually means is that you canât sneakily run your bus company by having all your passengers become members and work around the law in that manner. (In the same way that members clubs sometimes work around licensing law by all buying the drink between you and then taking it off of your pre-paid books as and when you have a drink).
This has even been clarified in a guidance note put out by the DfT in November 2017 which says:
So any group using small vehicles no issue or any group like us and the scouts who charge subscriptions but where the provision of transport is not our primary purpose is still covered under the system. (It actually goes on to provide even more reasons we are exempt and these can be viewed at the below link.)
If you really were worried, I am not in any way, as long as you can show that subscriptions arenât used for minibus running costs and that the bus is fully funded by donations (bag packs) etc you would be doubly safe, but I think the guidance is all pretty clear. (Iâve sat down with traffic officers and gone through all this and they agree with me that we are covered by the scheme, indeed its exactly the reason the scheme exists.)
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Awesome!
A summary of what you have stated here, with references to legal sources, really ought to be included in RAFAC policy documents.
I have seen many official and semi-official, but contradictory, opinions over the years and we have needed an unambiguous and verifiable statement of fact, covering our specific situation, for many years now.
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And using the information that Daws has provided,
The police are saying that the driver of the minibus still requires a D1 and the permit 19 is only to avoid having to register for a PSV licenseâŚ