Well if the likes of RS and Co decide to chin this off and choose not to get involved in Drill (along the same lines as those whose SA(B)90’s weren’t recognised), then the Cadets will lose out. *
When you have to jump through unnecessary hoops (to acheive something you can do anyway), you have to ask yourself “wtf am I doing here and is this the best use of my spare time”? Other interests quickly become more attractive.
*Now whether the Cadets are bothered at this lost opportunity or not is another matter - I’ve certainly seen a marked apathy amongst the new younger members of our Sqn. “…Kids these days… chunter…”[/quote]
What hoops? You don’t NEED to carry a pace stick to teach drill. In fact, I think what Racing Stick is saying about DIs in the ATC is that a lot of them don’t use them at all. In all likelihood he could probably do a better job than some DIs I know carrying an umbrella.[/quote]
Er, what we have been talking about - these hoops - in order to be ‘allowed’ to use a Teaching Aid:-
Can you evidence your qualification? If so, give it to your WExO and tell them that a) you already hold a higher qual and b) that you will end up losing money if they insist you do the course.
It’s anality like this that makes me despair about this organization.[/quote]
[quote=“Racing Stick” post=16015]I have to confess, I was wondering when this subject would appear on ACC.
You may have guessed already what my history is. I’m afraid I made a mistake when I first went into uniform in the ACO. I turned up for a drill practice for the Wing Drill Competition and was told by my Sqn’s other SNCO that I was not permitted to carry the stick, which I stress was carried open (Zinggy will know what I mean and it’s connotations). Naturally, (as I had been allowed to bring over my SAAI, SA07, SAB90 and such other quals form my time as a soldier) I thought I would be able to carry my pace stick to correctly instruct drill and not just carry it around as a status symbol as I’m sure some do. I was told that I would have to do the one week course at ATF if I wanted to carry my pace stick.
[/quote][/quote]
Well if the likes of RS and Co decide to chin this off and choose not to get involved in Drill (along the same lines as those whose SA(B)90’s weren’t recognised), then the Cadets will lose out. *
When you have to jump through unnecessary hoops (to acheive something you can do anyway), you have to ask yourself “wtf am I doing here and is this the best use of my spare time”? Other interests quickly become more attractive.
*Now whether the Cadets are bothered at this lost opportunity or not is another matter - I’ve certainly seen a marked apathy amongst the new younger members of our Sqn. “…Kids these days… chunter…”[/quote]
Now that would be a massive teddy throwing exercise, and for what gain?
Drill is drill. We have taught and coached thousands of cadets over the years and some of the best teams in competitions are taken forward with people who have ATC experience/quals only. Why does there need to be a “higher standard”? You can be the best with good quality ACO tutored DIs.
[quote=“Plt Off Prune” post=16208]some of the best teams in competitions are taken forward with people who have ATC experience/quals only.[/quote]Some of the best teams in competitions have got there with negligible direct input from a DI of any flavour
I see this issue as one of formally recognising a valid qualification and perhaps of doing away with some obsolete or ill-conceived rulings. I doubt that cadets will suffer one way or another but I have encountered some arrogant DIs who will not accept anything other than an ATC DI in a situation and clearing this up may prevent some future embarrassment or aggro.
As I said, it is my belief that anybody instructing drill in the ACO should be allowed to use a pace-stick for that purpose, be they cadet, SNCO or officer, DI or not.
[quote=“incubus” post=16209][quote=“Plt Off Prune” post=16208]some of the best teams in competitions are taken forward with people who have ATC experience/quals only.[/quote]Some of the best teams in competitions have got there with negligible direct input from a DI of any flavour
I see this issue as one of formally recognising a valid qualification and perhaps of doing away with some obsolete or ill-conceived rulings. I doubt that cadets will suffer one way or another but I have encountered some arrogant DIs who will not accept anything other than an ATC DI in a situation and clearing this up may prevent some future embarrassment or aggro.
As I said, it is my belief that anybody instructing drill in the ACO should be allowed to use a pace-stick for that purpose, be they cadet, SNCO or officer, DI or not.[/quote]
This is an interesting angle Incubus. I confess I believe that to use a pace stick you should be able to use it properly, for example for marking, pacing and return-pacing. Ultimately though, why can’t a cadet NCO be able to use one?
I know I have seen, (admittedly some time ago and maybe Talon can throw some modern light on it) a cadet RSM carrying a pace stick (not a racing stick admittedly) so why couldn’t NCO Air Cadets use it too? I don’t know how the ACO would react to Officer’s officially taking instructional drill. I guess the RAF per se wouldn’t see it correct??
Baldrick makes a very valid point. You DON’T need a pace stick to teach drill. That’s very true. I, personally, would not consider it unless I was taking full Sqn drill and in preparation for such parades as Remembrance, BoB; etc, where spacing, timing and markers are required. 110 (City of York) Sqn, for example, are paced out perfectly prior to the parade outside the Minster in this way to finalise and justify their positions perfectly.
But, in exactly the same way, Noah Claypole points out the very simple and clear point which is what I have been trying, at great lengths, to get through to some people, is that the Pace Stick is merely a tool; a training aid. No different to a flip-chart. An aid to the teaching of a topic which enhances and speeds the intricacies of squad movement which provides greater esteem and disciplined pride.
How can that in any way be a problem to anyone in this organisation? It certainly astounds me how they can.
[quote=“Racing Stick” post=16220]
I know I have seen, (admittedly some time ago and maybe Talon can throw some modern light on it) a cadet RSM carrying a pace stick (not a racing stick admittedly) so why couldn’t NCO Air Cadets use it too?[/quote]
I have seen them carried occasionally but more a badge of office rather than a tool, as pace stick drill is not in the syllabus so there is nowhere to learn it. No reason why a decent drill instructor couldn’t teach it though.
[quote=“Plt Off Prune” post=16208]Now that would be a massive teddy throwing exercise, and for what gain?
Drill is drill. We have taught and coached thousands of cadets over the years and some of the best teams in competitions are taken forward with people who have ATC experience/quals only. Why does there need to be a “higher standard”? You can be the best with good quality ACO tutored DIs.[/quote]
None - everyone loses because staff are frustrated with constantly having to find ‘work arounds’. I personally don’t care if people use a Mop and a Broom Handle Gaffa Taped together - the point is (as Incubus suggests) there are some bloody silly rules out there which need to addressed and which (rightly or wrongly) hack people off. It’s no different from the ‘not valid here’ CRB shambles.
Agreed - I am not even saying that these guys will be a higher standard, or in fact that a higher standard is needed - it is all about the principle.
[quote=“incubus” post=16209][quote=“Plt Off Prune” post=16208]some of the best teams in competitions are taken forward with people who have ATC experience/quals only.[/quote]Some of the best teams in competitions have got there with negligible direct input from a DI of any flavour
I see this issue as one of formally recognising a valid qualification and perhaps of doing away with some obsolete or ill-conceived rulings. I doubt that cadets will suffer one way or another but I have encountered some arrogant DIs who will not accept anything other than an ATC DI in a situation and clearing this up may prevent some future embarrassment or aggro.
As I said, it is my belief that anybody instructing drill in the ACO should be allowed to use a pace-stick for that purpose, be they cadet, SNCO or officer, DI or not.[/quote]
Good for them and long may it continue.
Absolutely and completely agree - but the trouble is there are lot of these types of rulings to sort out.
Suffer is probably the wrong word - I prefer the word lose. Ultimately Cadets will and do lose out because staff choose not to do activities which become to difficult to administrate. It is this underlying issue affecting Adult Staff - namely barking mad practices, adherence to non-sensical rules and worse - the creation of these bloody things, which cause Staff to vote with their feet. I consider that this is the biggest issues affecting the retention of Staff in any guise, or at the least, the activities which are offered to the Cadets as a result.
The facts are people are being told that they have to take a week off work to do a course which they have previously qualified in order to (‘legally’) use a Teaching Aid.
I have to disagree with the last point, as I fear it’ll lead to what led to the clamping down on the things in the first place - they will quickly become badges of office and abused.
having read through this thread and seen a couple of questions re ATF, I directly approached the WO at ATF (at the advice of the CACWO) to ask if my Sgt had to do the DI and ADI course all over again being ex-army and having done god knows how many weeks at Pirbright… YES he will have to redo. I even request that whilst on his initial course could a small assessment be done NO.
[quote=“wokkaman” post=16883]having read through this thread and seen a couple of questions re ATF, I directly approached the WO at ATF (at the advice of the CACWO) to ask if my Sgt had to do the DI and ADI course all over again being ex-army and having done god knows how many weeks at Pirbright… YES he will have to redo. I even request that whilst on his initial course could a small assessment be done NO.
[quote=“wokkaman” post=16883]having read through this thread and seen a couple of questions re ATF, I directly approached the WO at ATF (at the advice of the CACWO) to ask if my Sgt had to do the DI and ADI course all over again being ex-army and having done god knows how many weeks at Pirbright… YES he will have to redo. I even request that whilst on his initial course could a small assessment be done NO.
Crazy.[/quote]
Its beyond crazy a quick refresher is more than enough as I have said in the past being an ex RAF DI it confuses me how someone that dose a fraction of the course I completed can be seen as more qualified than me by the ACO…
No they regard themselves as being more qualified “small fish - little pond” mindset They like to strut around thinking they are God’s gift to all things drill/dress wise. You’re forgetting that the ACO has many Empire Builders in it’s CFAV ranks and unfortunately a large number seem to be in the more senior ranks of the SNCO cadre.
The ones in the Commissioned side even more unfortunately seem to be in the salaried staff.
a. Army drill, done well, taught by the SSI
or
b. RAF drill, done badly, taught by cadet NCOs and/or officers.
If we had Adult NCOs and access to the DI course, things might improve. Or you can ask your local ATC sqn for help, which I plan to do for an ATC75 event here in 2016…
[quote=“tmmorris” post=21325]This is why most CCF RAF cadets do either
a. Army drill, done well, taught by the SSI
or
b. RAF drill, done badly, taught by cadet NCOs and/or officers.
If we had Adult NCOs and access to the DI course, things might improve. Or you can ask your local ATC sqn for help, which I plan to do for an ATC75 event here in 2016…[/quote]
perhaps an obvious question to ask, and no doubt obvious answer to those in the know…
what is the difference between Army and RAF drill?
or are you talking about the Army “Rifles” drill which has different timings but is basically the same foot drill?
Lots and lots and lots of things. Maybe not obvious at first, but as a very concrete example, we are currently putting together a tri-service guard of honour. The RAF and Army section cadets halt at different speeds…
