Judging by the comments from CCF RAFVR(T) officers on ACLC, this will affect the ATC:
We’ll have an influx of officers transferring across, and some new school squadrons (and ACF/SCC equivalents) in public schools… they didn’t seem particularly impressed by the new policy.
It’s a no-brainer really - why have a CCF (RAF) section where your cadets have to pay hundreds of pounds PA and you don’t get paid for working during your holidays, when you could just run an ATC sqn where the subs are a fraction of the price and you get up to 35(?) PTDs per year?
[quote=“tmmorris” post=19779]You make a lot of sense, BUT CCFs currently deliver the ‘cadet experience’ for not much more than 50% of the cost to the public purse of other cadet organisations. See annex H to DYER for details. This is probably (unproven as DYER did not investigate) due to hidden subsidies, as you say, in the areas of heat/light/buildings/transport.[/quote] Absolutely. Add in many ACF dets are in need of immediate repair or replacement and transport has to be hired in many cases or in my case collected from a site 40 miles away before I’ve even put a cadet on board.
[quote]The non-public cost of CCFs is unknown. CCFA is doing work to find this out, but the net result might be that once CEP schools discover just how expensive CCFs are to the host school, they won’t want one. As one of the aims of this new proposal is to level the playing field, one has to assume that CCF CFAVs in state schools wouldn’t get paid either, and as stated, this is going to be a show stopper for recruitment.[/quote]As if there aren’t enough factors [show] stopping recruitment already.
[quote]The light I see at the end of the tunnel is that the funding situation is supposed to be subject to annual review. As I don’t see CEP succeeding, perhaps the cuts will not be necessary…[/quote]I think that when certain establishment figures see what is going to to happen to their beloved CCFs Cameron will be getting the good news from the people who REALLY run this country. A quicker u-turn than the pastie tax.
[quote=“tmmorris” post=19700]Latest salvo in the CCF funding saga - letter from ACDS R&C to headmasters proposing a timetable for cuts to existing CCF funding to fund the spectacularly successful Cadet Expansion Programme includes the loss of PTDs from 2016. Obviously if we go down, we go down fighting.
ATC will be next…
(When they came for the Jews, I said nothing, because I was not a Jew…)[/quote]I am curious. Pray tell me how you are going to fight?
[quote=“bucketofinstantsunshine” post=19816][quote=“tmmorris” post=19700]Latest salvo in the CCF funding saga - letter from ACDS R&C to headmasters proposing a timetable for cuts to existing CCF funding to fund the spectacularly successful Cadet Expansion Programme includes the loss of PTDs from 2016. Obviously if we go down, we go down fighting.
ATC will be next…
(When they came for the Jews, I said nothing, because I was not a Jew…)[/quote]I am curious. Pray tell me how you are going to fight?
If you are given an order, you will obey.[/quote]
Call it extreme if you like, but I propose we hit it hard and hit it fast with a major - and I mean major - leaflet campaign.
Obey? My Commanding Officer is the head teacher, I’ll do what I’m told by him…
And if they are really going to screw up the CCF to that extent, then I’ll certainly not sit by and watch. The worst they can do is terminate my commission and if the CCF goes tits-up I’ll lose that anyway.
Or as stated transfer across to the ATC. In fact, I told Comdt AC to her face that if this went through, I’d be loading up a couple of minibuses twice a week and driving them across to the ATC Sqn a couple of miles away…
bucketofinstantsunshine: “If you are given an order, you will obey.”
I don’t think CCFs work that way; at least none that I have come across do!
If they take away PTDs, I can’t imagine many school staff will bother to apply for a commission and go through OIC. I would probably resign my commission and become a civilian - it won’t make any difference to what I do each week.
Can someone on here explain how ATC funding works (ie how much you charge, how much goes to a Sqn and how much to HQAC)? In the CCF, I believe we get a contingent grant per cadet per year (I am sure tmmorris knows how much?) and our school also charges each cadet about £15-20 per term.
Contingent grant was just over £20 per cadet per year, but recently cut at least by our brigade because they say we can now demand more kit through the system. I have yet to check if this is true; plus Sp Comd published a new list of approved things to spend one’s grant on which was totally army-focussed and purported to override JSP313, which they can’t do. The specific item I have kicked off about is that JSP313 says I can spend money on boat maintenance for my RN section; the Sp Comd list doesn’t include this. However the list in JSP313 is pretty broad and for example I have spent money in the past on a computer for flight simulation which I am sure the army wouldn’t want me to have bought…
It’s not just PTDs which are under threat, but also the Contingent grant, plus they want to levy a charge of £175 per cadet per year eventually…
[quote=“tmmorris” post=19902]
It’s not just PTDs which are under threat, but also the Contingent grant, plus they want to levy a charge of £175 per cadet per year eventually…[/quote]
So largely bringing them into line with ATC cadets.
I could see a reason, are the majority if CCF camps in term time when the teachers/support staff are already paid, more than likely at a higher rate than a PTD. I know most school staff volunteer to do things like DofE anyway.
Our CCF will close and that will be that. There are just two teachers on a staff of 10-the rest of us get PTDs not pay by the school. That and the school can’t afford the £30,000 a year they want to charge. We are a pre-CEP State school CCF
Also there are plenty of things they say the £150 will pay for-things they currently provide at the moment. However if we are paying £30,000 to the MOD they better buck up their idea of service otherwise we will find another contractor to provide the experience.
Yes, but surely a teacher who is also CCF staff would be paid the same amount than if they were not a CFAV? There might be some schools that are willing to pay CCF staff a bit extra, but I am betting many would not if they currently also get PTDs?
That’s my argument. They are getting paid already for the time by the school (especially if the camps are in term time). Maybe get rid of PTD, BUT replace with a fixed TLR so at least it is a fixed additional income, rather than sporadic day pay.
[quote=“40b” post=19908]The idea stinks.
Also there are plenty of things they say the £150 will pay for-things they currently provide at the moment. However if we are paying £30,000 to the MOD they better buck up their idea of service otherwise we will find another contractor to provide the experience.[/quote]
I agree. We would need some sort of service level agreement to ensure that we get what we are paying for. Otherwise, I think it would be possible to get a similar “cadet” experience organised locally for less.
And where does the insurance come from? You can guarantee if we wanted to do all the activities we offer without the MoD insurance, we would be talking millions of pounds a year.
[quote=“orh197” post=19921][quote=“40b” post=19908]The idea stinks.
Also there are plenty of things they say the £150 will pay for-things they currently provide at the moment. However if we are paying £30,000 to the MOD they better buck up their idea of service otherwise we will find another contractor to provide the experience.[/quote]
I agree. We would need some sort of service level agreement to ensure that we get what we are paying for. Otherwise, I think it would be possible to get a similar “cadet” experience organised locally for less.[/quote]By the ATC, for one. I’m not sure what the current subs bill that requires paying ‘up the chain’ is, but I’m pretty sure that it’s less than 1/3 of that.
There will be a service level agreement, I’m told.
Most of the more financially secure schools are looking at ‘alternative ways to provide the cadet experience’, to quote one mediaeval public school directly. We certainly are. Alternatives include a non-uniform leadership programme, and becoming a non-MOD sponsored cadet force.
As stated eloquently by 40b, most existing state school CCFs (around 40% of CCFs are in state schools already) will close. That will only leave a rump in the middle.
What is the average level of ATC subs paid up the CoC (i.e. not used for local squadron expenses)?
I can’t find the recent sheet but I think it is £2.50 per cadet per month is due to HQAC. On top of that my region charges 20p/mnth and my wing charged £1/mnth. So, £3.70 per calendar month for cadets on the books.
It is up to squadrons to cover this cost by fundraising. We charge cadets £7 per month by cheque or standing order, with spare money going into our coffers.
