Careers in the services of other countries: ever thought?

Everyone Careers
1

There is a Cadet from our sector that’s joined the Irish Army, with hopes to be able to pursue interests in both aviation and military equestrian activities.

Whilst the Irish Air Corps is hardly the world’s biggest or busiest air force, I just wondered if current air cadets have ever considered applying to join the armed services of any other country?

I mean in any serious/researched sort of way, not a vague fantasy desire to join the Foreign Legion.

This has often struck me as being a surprisingly-rare strategy for ‘military air-minded’ people to adopt. By this, I also mean that if someone was thinking about a career in civil aviation, people would hardly bat an eyelid if they heard that someone had joined (or was being sponsored by) any airline, anywhere in the world. Yet it strikes me that it’s extremely rare for people to ever consider this from a military aviation career perspective.

Whilst there would obviously be citizenship issues, and potential language barriers (probably less of a factor in aviation than in many other areas of commitment), when there is an era of relative peace, and the existence of NATO, Commonweath, Scandanavian and Continental air forces, is this a career path that’s not being considered as often as perhaps it should be?

Please note, this is not meant to be in any way unpatriotic, or suchlike, it’s just an attempt to raise a discussion topic on the practicalities and pros/cons of service with other allied (air) forces as a potential career option.

wilf_san

2

I think that the simple fact is that for the most part, people join foreign militaries primarily to be part of a first-rate military, or to move to a more developed country - eg Irish people joining the British forces have far more chance of an ‘interesting’ career, and commonwealth citizens do it because the life’s better!

The most likely scenario I can think of for a Brit wanting to join an overseas force would be the forces of one of the commonwealth realms - but I’m not sure off of the top of my head whether you can do that as a direct entrant.

3

I joined the ATC with a friend from school who is Australian, holding dual nationality for both here and down under. His nickname was very clever I thought, encompassing a good level of humour and wit. “Aussie” we called him.

About a year later he left the UK with his family back to Ausland and as far as I’m aware I believe he now works in communications for the RAAF. Either that or something tech-y which I don’t understand.

4

I thought you had to be an Irish Citizen to join the PDF?

I ask because when I was looking into joining foreign armed forces, I looked at them and concluded they were a non-starter because they weren’t recruiting anyone full stop and the agreement that lets Irish Citizens join HM Armed Forces didn’t appear to be reciprocal.

Also looked at the Canadians (must have a secure job offer before you can enter Canada), the Aussies (looking for people with prior military experience) and the French (I’m just not crazy enough for La Legion Etrangere).

Thought about the Yanks, but then really gave up on the idea.

I’ve always said that if we still lived in the days of Empire I would have joined one of the colonial police forces. My Dad nearly did sign up for the Royal Hong Kong Police, but was rejected because of his asthma (which was good for me, in the long run, since I probably wouldn’t exist…)

5

As an NZ citizen living in England at the time, I was planning on joining the RAF. They pay more and I would have better opportunities than in the RNZAF. However the Home Office were prats and so I’m now back in NZ, working through uni and heading into the RNZAF.

6

How exactly were the home office prats? Did they apply the rules? Or fail to see common sense?

7

They mucked me (and the rest of my family) around regarding citizenship. They applied the rules correctly but mislead us as to what the rules were.

8

Sorry to hear that.

9

Oh well, the joys of bureaucracies. Anyway, anyone else?

10

Damn it, Wilf_San! You’ve got me thinking again… :frowning:

What I don’t understand is the non-reciprocal nature of the UK recruiting Commonwealth and Irish Citizens without any requirement to take UK citizenship or any bias towards UK recruits.

It seems unfair that an Australian (with no prior service) can come to the UK, join the RAF, serve their term and then return to Australia without ever being required to become a UK citizen on the basis that we have the same Queen, while (from the ADF website):

[quote]Eligibility of non-Australian citizens to join the ADF

If you do not meet the Citizenship criteria, and you are a Permanent Resident of Australia, the ADF may consider a temporary waiver of the citizenship requirements if the position for which you are applying cannot be filled by an applicant who meets all the citizenship requirements, and then only in exceptional circumstances. In addition to these considerations:
a.If you are a permanent resident who is eligible to apply for Australian citizenship you must provide a Department of Immigration and Citizenship (DIAC) receipt to prove that you have applied for Australian citizenship.
b.If you are a permanent resident who is ineligible to apply for Australian citizenship and you are approved for a temporary waiver you will be required to obtain Australian citizenship as early as possible following enlistment or appointment. You must be prepared to sign an undertaking to apply for citizenship after completing 3 months full-time service in the ADF or 6 months part-time service in the ADF Reserve.

If you are a permanent resident who enters the ADF (having been granted a temporary waiver) you must be aware that your service will be terminated if you:
a.fail to apply for citizenship when eligible to do so;
b.are not offered citizenship; or
c.fail to accept citizenship when it is offered.

Some positions also require high level security clearances involving extensive background checks, which may limit options for some Permanent Resident applicants.

Each individual case will be considered on its merits.

More information on citizenship requirements and the citizenship waiver process is available from your Defence Force Recruiting Centre.

If you are not an Australian permanent resident or an Australian citizen, but you have previous military experience, you will need to refer to the individual Navy, Army and Air Force information pages for your entry options. These can be found in the Overseas Applicants section.

If you are not an Australian permanent resident or an Australian citizen and you have no previous military experience, you are not eligible to apply to join the ADF.
[/quote]

I know, I know. Life isn’t fair.

11

[quote=“tango_lima” post=2151]Damn it, Wilf_San! You’ve got me thinking again… :frowning:

What I don’t understand is the non-reciprocal nature of the UK recruiting Commonwealth and Irish Citizens without any requirement to take UK citizenship or any bias towards UK recruits.
[/quote]

It’s strange, isn’t it?? I did fill-in a formal query form about this years ago, and sent it off to the the Irish Air Corps. It was back when the ex-Cadet in question was talking about joining the RoIPDF (who, incidently, does have dual citizenship, as was correctly guessed). The PDF never responded to me.

I also asked for some information about it via more local formal routes, really just out of interest, but the net feedback was absolutely nil.

The Irish Air Corps is tiny (I just looked it up on Wiki, and it’s astounding to see it’s actually less than a third the size of the RAuxAF), but it is very intriguing that there appears to be absolutely no reciprocation for British citizens back to the RoI, nor really to any Commonwealth countries.

And I still think it’s odd, the more you consider it, that there isn’t an automatic reciprocal arrangement to allow citizens of allied NATO countries to serve in the military of these allied countries- even just on an associate citizen basis. I do just (mainly) mean in principle.

Another angle on this is that perhaps the UK is an international ‘odd man out’ on this? (nb I do not know). Perhaps this could be asked/solved on Prune, but I’m a very-rare visitor over there…this is my home forum. Thinks…you know, I bet that Belgians do serve in the French Air Force, and that Norwegians can/do fly for Sweden. Without being citizens, I mean. I’ve got nothing to base this on, it’s just a strong hunch. Does anyone know about this, for certain??

wilf_san

ps flying kiwi, bad luck, sorry to read about your experiences. At least it’ll go well for you eventually!!

pps ‘Too sensible to join the Legion’…fair comment! It has a very low profile these days…I wonder how 2REP are doing these days, must have a look. Met them at the Royal Tournament last century…

12

I met a cadet on Gib camp who had quite well thought out plans for heading into the USAF. I think one parent may have been a yank.

13

Interesting…so they’d be an actual ex-ATC member of the USAF or it’s reserves.

That must be an extremely rare career progession…

They just do things so diffently in the US, for both for regular and reserve air forces.


wilf_san

14

[quote=“wilf_san” post=2209]
They just do things so diffently in the US, for both for regular and reserve air forces.[/quote]

What were you thinking of in particular?

Other than the wider roles for US part-timers? (Certainly if you think Air Guard = RAuxAF, USAF Reserves = Sponsered reserves)

I remember being a bit shocked to find out that the airmen in Air Guard aren’t given any form of accomodation at their duty stations unless mobilised. Especially since the blokes could be travelling all from all over a state the size of Texas or California for a training weekend; I wouldn’t do my sixty miles if I didn’t have a bed for at least the Saturday!

15

A cadet from one of my previous squadrons joined the US Military about a year ago.

I can’t remember the name of the actual formation he joined, but I remember it sounding like the US equivalent of the Fleet Air Arm.

16

[quote=“tango_lima” post=2212][quote=“wilf_san” post=2209]
They just do things so differently in the US, for both for regular and reserve air forces.[/quote]

What were you thinking of in particular?
[/quote]

Well…you appear to be one of the depressingly-few people either in (or outwith) the Reserve Air Forces of the Crown that actually have a good handle on understanding the history, context and roles of said formations. The rest of the world (light-blue or otherwise) tends not to have a clue… :mad:

When you say…

[quote"tango_lima"]Other than the wider roles for US part-timers? (Certainly if you think Air Guard = RAuxAF, USAF Reserves = Sponsered reserves)[/quote]In my opinion, you’d be almost 100% spot-on if this were still 1957. I don’t just mean the obvious loss back then of almost the UK’s entire volunteer military (both RAuxAF and FAA® squadrons), but also the crazy early previous loss of the RAF SR squadrons pre-WW2, which along with the FTRS concept, took MoD and the AFB another half-century to resurrect at long last in 1997.

I think that the whole approach to Air Reserves in the USA is much more co-ordinated, and better understood by wider society and the parent service…and appreciated. Even at the highest levels, the structures such as the Department of the Air Force, the integrated-yet-specialised respective lead roles for the ANG/USAFR/CAP. In the US, the expression “Air Force” is still understood to mean an umbrella military collective term for a range of distinct-yet-complimentary forces, plural when required, unified when necessary. There is a perspective that this has been getting steadily blurred/eroded in the UK since 1957, yet being progressively refined and sharpened in the US over that same timescale.

Arguably, the changes that were attempted under RFA96 were to both turn the clock back 40 years, and to catch-up with the US Air Reserves model (in all aspects bar aircrew options)

Is this perhaps not just a US variation upon the good-old British concept of “Non-Public Funds”, in the sense that if Citizen Airmen/Airwomen were involved in activities which were not directly-resulting from a federal authorisation or activiation (say training/airshows?) budgets would have to be found from their home US State NG/ANG financial sources, and not from the DeptAF or USAF?? Similarly, if they were CAP (when acting as USAF Aux, eg on SAROPS ), my understanding is that they would be messed/rationed on straight cost to the regular USAF.

But I’d agree with your other point, that to a big extent the roles the USAFR has been covering are similar in style to the remits of individual RAFR ResO/ResA ‘digital’ posts (where FTRS mobilised, and similarly, RAuxAF FTRS). They’re also I suppose a bit like the poor old MMU.

(And it is very scary to read that the USAFR has actually got more personnel in it than the entire regular RAF+RAuxAF combined…without even thinking about the ANG!!)

Oh to be back to the happy days of 1947, and to have squadrons of Mk24 Spits lined-up on the flight-line… :unsure:

wilf_san

17

But, Wilf_San! Volunteer Reservists couldn’t possibly operate or maintain modern aircraft! Our tiny, mostly civilian brains would explode with the effort! What’s that? National Guard, you say? But they’re different and are all pilots in their day jobs. What’s that? Both the DC Air Guard pilots who were told to intercept United 93 on 9/11 and planned to ram the airliner because they were otherwise unarmed were civilian lawyers? Well, America is different…harrumph.

On topic:

Oddly enough, it would probably be easier for a Brit to join the US Armed Forces (either ‘Active Duty’ or ‘Guard and Reserve’) than those of other Commonwealth countries, since all you need to enlist is a Green Card.

18

[quote=“wilf_san” post=2209]Interesting…so they’d be an actual ex-ATC member of the USAF or it’s reserves.

That must be an extremely rare career progession…
[/quote]

He was planning to become a fast jet pilot!

19

We had a guy years ago (Cadet Sgt) who was turned down for Pilot by the RAF… So he went and joined the USAF. Flies F-16s IIRC. There’s a photo in our Squadron of us meeting him, nice guy. Broad Scottish accent combined with the USAF uniform is a strange sight to behold!

20

I know the ADF were keen on recruiting British R SIGNALS personnel a while back, and still may be, a friend of mine nearly did it, must admit, it’s something I’m tempted by.