Building & Surrounds RA - Generic?

Adult Staff The Staff Mess
17

Well, i had this exact problem.

We share a building and when it was opened our WExO and their Major wrote some joint standing orders, one of which specifically said that there are 3 noticeboards in our shared hall. One for each unit and one for a joint H&S noticeboard because the information needs to be the same and this shouldn’t be altered for any reason.

10 years down the line and all my h&s notices kept getting moved. I’d move them back, then come in the next night and they were moved again. I complained, quoted the document saying this shouldn’t happen and got told to get back in my box and they can do what they like. I kept putting them back on our joint board until the CAA got fed up and put up another notice board in “our half” of the building and put all my notices on that.

So now we have conflicting information, written by different people, for anyone who wants it. I gave up complaining.

18

Nobody bar us staff bothers to sign in either. Not one single contractor has ever done so except where I’ve been present to ask them to.

Arguably, the visitors brief should be all that’s necessary - taking account of any important points in the RA and presenting them to the average person in the form of simple, easily understood instructions: “Do this”; “Do not do that”.

But again, I find it hard to believe that anyone in the building without staff present has ever bothered to read it - if they had they would have found the paragraph which directs them to sign in and out.

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19

Shared Buildings with the ACF are an ongoing problem, and usually personality driven.

I’ve been to some where the ACF view the RAFAC Sqn as the (very) junior Partner in the “business”.

Attempts were made to create an agreed “Joint” H&S noticeboard that met all the requirements of the ACF and RAFAC. Some adopt it, some don’t from the ACF side.

This is an ongoing issue, and one that won’t be solved anytime soon I predict.

I can only assure you that it is being looked at.

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20

The comments about the ACF, show IMO a very real dichotomy. As I understand it the CAA does this for all ACF Dets, whereas we have x sqns per wing all doing the same thing but differently which then does the ATC multiplier resulting in a multiplication of controls. We have a specific section for visitors on a parade night to “sign in”, on the fire register. If someone comes in during the day I’m not fussed whether they sign in or not

I think we should come under the CAAs and H&S brought into RFCAs remit for us as well, so it’s all the same song sheet. How many people actually read H&S noticeboards? I’ve been going to one company for years and because I had to wait, I looked at the walls and saw an H&S noticeboard. I asked is that new, no, it had been there for years. I’d never noticed it, or if I had immediately dismissed it.
This should also mean quicker resolution local problems, rather than all the fannying around with “bits of paper” (several times over because it gets lost and or someone changes the form) to WExOs ending up getting done years later.

21

You can lead a Horse to Water, but you can’t make it drink it.

You have to give people the OPPORTUNITY to be able to read what is required.
That is also a legal requirement that all organisations have to comply with, so people in all walks of life can whinge and moan all they like… it’s the law.

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11 posts were merged into an existing topic: H&S / ELA

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I’m not sure about other Sqns, but mine has all the “mandatory” notices in one place. There’s fire orders, standing orders, Army Reserve Centre orders, Childline posters, the H&S stuff and more. It all takes up about 2 noticeboards, it’s crazy. People probably don’t read them because they don’t know it’s there. Admittedly, it’s easily solved, but I suspect it could be the case in a lot of places?

24

It wouldn’t matter where it was people wouldn’t read it, unless you stuck them in front of said read this and there are questions after and if you get any wrong you can’t come in.
As I said I’ve visited the same company for years and only when I had to wait did I actually see the H&S stuff in the entrance lobby.
I think that because businesses/organisations have to have these things somewhere, they just blend in people don’t take any notice of them, which sort of defeats the object.
I’d never really considered it but it is ironic that a building & surrounds RA is inside the building that you are going into and not just in our instance.

@RickWhitehead why have the ACF and us seemingly got different requirements? That is the real question that needs to be answered, not that there is seemingly conflict, which does appear from the comments to be ‘instigated’ by us. If this is the case, why? TBH if I was in shared accommodation I’d go with it, to avoid duplication and confusion. This is why it should be RFCA through the CAAs that do H&S. It’s a RFCA building we all use so it seems in a time when you should be looking to save money in the public sector that we have 2 groups doing in essence the same thing. RFCA do/arrange the lighting etc checks, which are spawned due to H&S. How does it work for units that are in rented accommodation? Do they ‘go with’ the requirements of their landlords or does the ATC try an impose itself on them? It would seem that RFCA are our landlords and yet while they hold sway in the ACF, the ATC says nope we’re doing it our way, IMO just to create jobs. It seems this is a classic example of two people trying to do the same thing at the same time, in different ways, which never ends well.

25

My last building inspection by the Fire and Rescue RAF people raised concerns because I was only using the ACP5 forms for my monthly inspection. They also mandated the completion of their form, that all the posters issued from ACP5 also had to have their version also displayed. All that because seemingly at that point FR RAF and H&S RAFAC didn’t have a joined up approach. So although my unit was Gold accredited, I failed the building inspection.

26

Hello Mr Teflon…

I have no idea who you are… all I can go off is a quick scroll through other topics on which you’ve shared your wisdom and opinions.

Can I just politely ask you… why do you bother volunteering?

I’m only new on here, but having looked through old topics, I haven’t seen a single positive comment by you about anything, not just H&S?

If it’s as bad as you portray, why bother?
Someone else will take up the mantle of giving young people the support, be it through Air Cadets, Scouts or Youth Clubs.

I’ve never seen anything from you but criticism and negativity.

I do hope you’re not like that with the Cadets.

Post something positive and supportive if you’re able.

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27

When asked why I love ACC:

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image662×629 117 KB

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28

Sometimes it takes a fresh eye to really appreciate what we’ve all become largely inured to.

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29

@RickWhitehead Thank you for your insight.

Can you from your ‘senior position’ answer these questions to help clarify things :

What do we do/have the ACF do/don’t and why? I’m not in shared accommodation so I’m curious.
What do/don’t ACF CFAV have that we don’t/do? Given that H&S contributes to the admin so much despised by ATC CFAV.
What problems do these cause on shared units by having a different approach? On this point it suggests walking in and being confronted by conflicting H&S requirements/info, depending which way you turn.
Why not just adopt the ACF way? Then do this across the ATC to ensure a standardised approach.
What problems would this cause, because it seems it is a problem for those in shared accommodation?
On what premise do the ATC H&S community feel they have right to expect the ACF to change?

Your tone/assertion that it’s an ongoing problem and it is being looked at, suggests the ACF doesn’t do it properly (in the eyes of the ATC) and the ACF (effectively RFCA) changes, that doesn’t suggest a harmonious outcome and a half way house solution, no better than what seems to happen currently.

30

I don’t recall stating on this forum that I was in a senior position.
I decided to put my “head above the Parapet” in response to criticism and some misunderstandings/half truths about H&S/ELA/RA Courses that were brought to my attention.

Why don’t you draft a formal letter/email to HQAC via your WExO and ask the question directly to them?
Maybe copy RFCA into it since they may be able to address some of the points you raise.

I once researched a talk for a WO Conference a few years back which was in response to a statement by a volunteer who complained and moaned that the H&S in the RAFAC was such that he was thinking of jumping Ship (Aircraft surely?) and joining the Scouts.

I researched the amount of H&S admin required in the Scouts compared to our own.
Yes indeed we have slightly more… but it was not the wide gulf expected between the two.
He would probably NOT be able to tell the difference in the amount of H&S if he was a Scoutmaster instead of a Flt Lt RAFAC.

They (The Scouts) still have to do it, and they, like us, are legally obliged to do so.

That is a complaint that you would have to take up with your local MP to raise in Parliament, because much of the H&S admin that you appear to detest so much, is there only so that we can comply with the requirements of the law.
It is NOT RAFAC or even MOD POlicy. It is the Law.

Because the ACF have taken on the responsibility of reporting building defects and arranging PA Tests etc, in shared buildings, some ACF Commanders have interpreted that as being that they have control of the RAFAC Sqn/DF.

I did say in an earlier post that the attempts to sort out the differences was ongoing, and with a new CESO, might have an added impetus.

I also don’t recall that the RAFAC H&S community expected the ACF to change.

It would not be unreasonable for both sides to have some give and take to arrive at a comfortable and agreeable solution (but again, no disrespect Mr Teflon, I’m sure you’ll still find fault with it somewhere).

It is being looked at in response to observations during assurance visits and feedback from volunteers.

My personal opinion, and from what I have seen on ACF Noticeboards is that some of them DON’T do it correctly. I believe, and indeed hope, that an agreeable solution is achievable.

I’m probably more confident in that respect than you are.

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31

We are in shared accommodation with the ACF, I was advised by our region HSE bod to put up various notices which I was then non politely told to “remove your c**p from the walls” by the CAA. Since then I dont bother putting any of it up - and justify it because the CAA has told me to “get back in my box” as all stuff like that is down to them and we follow their lead as the lodger unit. So I produce it for the HSE folder and a visitor briefing folder but not the notice boards. Still doing what is required but without any conflict with an uppity “this is my trainset” mentality person who I have absolutely zero time for. They get paid, I don’t - so I am not wasting my time on doing it. High time we all sang from the same hymn sheet to avoid conflicting orders etc.

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32

Sorry, but CAA?

33

County Admin Assistant I think. Similar to our WExO but ours are Captains rather than Major level like a WExO.

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34

Directly responsible for the RFCA buildings on a day to day basis - custodian if you will.

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35

Too posh a word…

Call them what they are… care takers.

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36

Caretaker or custodian, why aren’t they doing the same for the ATC given RFCA ae our landlords as well and cut out the ATC middlemen? Has to be a saving in there for the MOD and potentially a bit less for sqn staff to bother with.
This is probably what it would be like if DYER had been accepted by HQAC and therefore at the heart of why it wasn’t.