Billing for uniform

Hi,

Can anyone tell me - do we (on the Sqn) actually bill cadets for uniform that they haven’t returned when they decide they no longer wish to be a member of the ATC? You hear of it going on but is there actually a policy in place? Looked in 20 and 300 but nothing there.

Thanks :slight_smile:

It’s not your uniform to bill for. There is no mechanism for putting the money into the right service funds for the uniform. Taking a “deposit” is also not allowed as it would be fraud.

I would say it depends on the uniform.

If it is general Blue issue stuff, why bother?

Write it off and forget about it, not really worth the hassle.

If, on the other hand, it is squadron owned kit (greens etc) purchased at squadron expense, then as long as you can prove it was issued there should be no problem sending a bill if it is not returned.

Just my thoughts.

Give the parents a call and ask them when would be a good time for you to come and collect it. It works for me!

I wouldn’t worry, it comes back when mums get brassed off moving stuff around it in a wardrobe/cupboard.

I wouldn’t go round and collect it as it encourages laziness in teenagers and their parents and they don’t need encouragement in this.

Thanks for all your comments, they’ve been really useful.

I know its slightly off topic but how do you guys go about giving uniform to a new cadet?

By this what I mean is do you give cadets second hand berets and next to skin items of clothing? I ma looking at this from a hygiene point of view anything that is has next to skin contact the RAF wont reissue. (Before anyone states that the do with CS95 they dont as CS95 is not next to skin as you should wear long johns under the trousers and a T-shirt under trhe shirt/jacket).

I know we all have a lack of uniform so what do we do? I know for a fact I wouldnt like to wear any from of hat that has been sitting on someone elses head for a few years…

Cadets are scaled for berets… Give them a new one.

As for items to the skin. Before MTP my local RAF Station were service washing part worn DPM and re-issuing to personnel. To be fair there was a shortage or it was during the changeover.

Long-johns under DPM! Not in this weather I hope!!! If three TA soldiers can’t look after themselves and hydrate then think of the Cdt’s!

Give all uniform and good wash and issue new headdress. IMHO

Other than boots or shoes (and berets) I don’t see the issue with reissuing things, as long as they’re washed well as Merlin says above.

Otherwise I doubt many squadrons would ever get greens!

[quote=“bdamage” post=9291]Hi,

Can anyone tell me - do we (on the Sqn) actually bill cadets for uniform that they haven’t returned when they decide they no longer wish to be a member of the ATC? You hear of it going on but is there actually a policy in place? Looked in 20 and 300 but nothing there.

Thanks :)[/quote]

Charge them subs until they hand it back.

[quote=“Jonay1990” post=9301]

Charge them subs until they hand it back.[/quote]

Yes because they are going to pay subs when they have effectively left cadets…

If the alternative is to not actually get the kit back, I’ll risk it.

If they wont give uniform back I doubt they will hand over cash for subs

Merlin,

Nope no long Johns I was just using that as a point as the CS95 system is to supposed to be worn with them which is why CS95 is not classed as a next to skin item however all your blue uniform is and shouldnt be issued to anyone else after it being used but you are right in this weather bad idea.

Talon got in there as I was typing!

I insist all my new cadets have a brand new issue from the packet of all items when they join.

PWS items are then issued as extras, for example a good condition dark blue shirt as extra for camp. When they grow out of old uniform, we see what we have in stores. Most uniform these days comes back in a state too bad to be re-issued, particially trousers and jumpers.

Brassards and Berets I allow the leaving cadets to keep, as I won’t issue berets that have been worn.

The “robustness” [is that a word?] of the current supply is certainly not as high as previously known. You could use the old style trousers as emery paper if you wanted to.

I stand ready to be corrected/educated!

Why is asking for a deposit considered to be fraud? The definition of fraud is along the lines of ‘wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain’, or ‘a person or thing intended to deceive others’. There is nothing criminal in asking for a deposit as there is no permanent intention to deprive, the money remains in the Sqn funds until the cadet brings the uniform back. Furthermore, there is no intention to deceive, parents are told from the outset that the deposit is refundable!

Given we issue the uniform, it doesn’t cost us anything and we don’t charge for replacements, I feel while not exactly fraud, a deposit would be unethical.
It would also be a pita to administer, especially when as I have had, uniform returned 2, 3 or more years after they’ve drifted away/left.

[quote=“glass half empty 2” post=9319]Given we issue the uniform, it doesn’t cost us anything and we don’t charge for replacements, I feel while not exactly fraud, a deposit would be unethical.
It would also be a pita to administer, especially when as I have had, uniform returned 2, 3 or more years after they’ve drifted away/left.[/quote]

I get your point, but even so, we’re not defrauding the RAF either as we’re not making a permanent charge for ‘their’ uniform. Deposits are effectively held as a separate account on the Sqn books, no trouble to administer either really, they pay when they bring their initial joining paperwork back.

It works too, I reckon we had a 60-70% uniform return rate in the past, that’s now 90%+

[quote=“cygnus maximus” post=9322][quote=“glass half empty 2” post=9319]Given we issue the uniform, it doesn’t cost us anything and we don’t charge for replacements, I feel while not exactly fraud, a deposit would be unethical.
It would also be a pita to administer, especially when as I have had, uniform returned 2, 3 or more years after they’ve drifted away/left.[/quote]

I get your point, but even so, we’re not defrauding the RAF either as we’re not making a permanent charge for ‘their’ uniform. Deposits are effectively held as a separate account on the Sqn books, no trouble to administer either really, they pay when they bring their initial joining paperwork back.

It works too, I reckon we had a 60-70% uniform return rate in the past, that’s now 90%+[/quote]

Within the regular RAF (and the active reserves) it certainly used to be the case that personnel were required to pay, personally, for uniform items that had to be replaced prior to their scheduled lifespan. That also included paying for replacement uniform items that were missing when they reached the point of discharge from service, eg if someone PVRd/bought themselves out. No1 dress used to be very (very) expensive to replace if it had, for instance, suffered an ‘ironing accident’.

I can’t really see how this could be viewed as being fraudulent either (I mean charging service personnel for missing/damaged uniform).

Although on our sqn we don’t (currently) charge any uniform deposit, I’d be willing to bet that such a localised procedure finds it’s origins from within classic service practice: perhaps not any longer applied within the wider RAF. I’ve also got a gut feeling that at one time (eg in the early 1980s and prior to then) ATC squadrons may have been financially-penalised for uniforms going missing if Cadets went AWOL especially early in career. Similarly, Cadets if were issued kit late in their service that was still listed as being non life-expired on the scaling (and it was on their personal F668), if they failed to pay HMG on discharge, I’m sure the squadron would’ve been forced to pay. I do know that back in the black-and-white days, RAFP used to be dispatched to provide a friendly doorstep recovery service for all sorts of (nowadays viewed as being trivial) items of kit, from the homes of airmen’n’women…if that also extended to ATC Cadet home addresses, in the 50s/60s/70s I wouldn’t have been in the least bit surprised. Too labour-intensive now, though.

wilf_san

ps I shall try and find a No1 SofTT uniform issue list from 1980-something that includes expected lifespans of items…

When I handed over command of my Squadron in the '80s I was charged over £100 pounds for unrecovered items of uniform.
I didn’t get any credit for surplus items!

Ok it’s not fraud. It’s malfeasance in a public office. The RAF do not issue you instructions to request a deposit. Keeping a deposit and using it for something other than the intended product/original product owner/payer (ie the crown) is misappropriation. It doesn’t matter how you look at it, it’s a criminal act.