Perhaps I’m missing the point here? Surely if you don’t want to be co-operative with other staff the hit you take is that it takes more time to do the quals yourself. If you want to work with other people, you achieve more with less individual effort? I’m not sure what the benefit of an individualistic approach could possibly be?
Although it is stupid that you can supervise fieldcraft campouts but not DofE ones. It does seem like there should be one catch-all for overnight camping.
That’s where I was going really. If you’re going for Gold from the off, it would be better to gain the qualification to allow you to run lower levels en route. Will give you much more experience in the long term for delivering a Gold exped.
Paddlesport Touring Leader is a halfway house between Paddlesport Leader and Canoe Leader - moderate open water remit, and rivers up to (but not including) Grade 2.
Do you have any details about it? I’m interested in it but can’t see the course content on the BC or the awarding site…
I think the difference here is that whilst cooperation is great, I potentially have to take someone with me who has no interest in canoeing, just for the overnight bit. Seems a bit of a waste of time and energy all round.
Hmm, I’m not so sure.
As there are no external FC quals, the default position will end up will end up being that we need the LLA to bivvy out.
IMO What we need is staff training in both disciplines, that is so suitably robust that we don’t need NGB qualifications to run low level training.
No, nothing more than that as I went to a webinar about the new leadership awards. I expect the content will appear soon.
Not much to know really, other than it’ll be a multi-craft setup in 500m offshore, F4 winds, and Grade 1+ rivers. So whatever craft you choose to be assessed on you need to be capable of leading a multi-craft group in those conditions. I’m probably going to do the assessment on SUP to get the moving water SUP tick.
Edit: I have the webinar slides if you PM your email.
Depends who you have around your wing and how you’re likely to use them, I guess? I can’t see why someone would object to rocking up at the campsite, staying overnight to help supervise and then letting you get on with it…?
Well, yes, that would be nice… unlikely, but nice.
I couldn’t disagree more, low level training is the foundation for everything else and therefore doing it properly ideally using NNAS as the route to training is key to long term improvement.
But not for Field craft, surely?
Edited to add:
The FC people all seem to have the opinion that AT quals are irrelevant to FC.
The AT People all seem to have the opinion that FC instructors are not trained, or sufficiently qualified to supervise cadets in an overnight situation.
All this, despite both disciplines sharing many common elements.
There needs to be a middle ground that satisfies both activities.
Route to my qual:
2015: I started from scratch essentially, I did my one star in GP kayak as a student on a cadet course with DSW, I loved it, and got the best bit of advice for my whole paddling career on that week. Join a club. I joined a local club within a few weeks and did a course in taking my kayak standard up to 2star level. (I’m now the club secretary!) I moved into white water over that year in kayak. This is pretty much only doable outside of the ATC, as my club doesn’t operate within full BC remits, we take our beginners through a one star level in May-June, then take them onto Symonds Yat Rapids in July. Even now, 5 years down the line, I am nowhere near the official BCU qual to take someone down those rapids. I also did a Sea Kayak Exped off Cornwall.
2016: I spent the summer at my club learning how to paddle an open canoe to a 2* standard. At this point in time I needed to be able to paddle two craft to pass a 2*, you then need a 2* to take level one coach, i had no interest in paddling an open canoe, so this forced me to learn to do it, against my will in effect. (British Canoeing have now changed the system, so now, I wouldn’t need to do that!) I did more club white water, culminating in my first trip to Llanbedr at the end of the year, to do my 3* White Water Kayak. (Which is where I really could see the difference between someone who paddles with a club, as opposed to someone who only paddles with cadets, it can be pretty stark.)
2017: I didn’t manage any new quals in 2017, I’m not exactly sure why thiking back, but I kept paddling in my spare time, I think I maybe couldn’t get the time off work for the Windermere/Fairbourne courses,.
2018: Paddlesport Instructor Course in April 2018, (with pEp as it happens), as well as my FSRT, both at Windermere. I did my WWSRT in June (privately) and my 3* Sea Kayak in September (also privately.) It was in 2018 that I transitioned into OC1 for whitewater, and I had to miss Fairbourne because I almost drowned the day before the course throwing my OC1 down the Leven.
2019: Paddlesport Leader training in May(?) followed by an attempted assessment in October. I also taught Start with the club in the summer. Apparently our PSL training was less than thorough and Clive and Chris were concerned about those of us who did that particular training course (outside provider). I also had a bad day on the second day of assessment, so need a re-test.
2020: I had big plans for 2020, aiming to polish off Canoe Award and PSL. I went to Fairbourne in second week of March, for Canoe Award and PSL Assessment. However, we only paddled one day on Bala lake in my open before the course was cancelled due to lockdown. Fortunately, thanks to various bits of cadet paddling, and him having seen me on that day my Canoe Award was signed off by Nick.
My aims now are to some point go back to Fairbourne, pass my PSL and push for Canoe Leader next, meanwhile, try and do a LLA.
This all takes a lot of time to get through, and unless you can make every single paddlesports week at one of the NACATCs, it’s difficult without private coaching, as the ATC doesn’t really offer staff courses away from those centres.
In reply to Rey’s question. It’s not a problem to use walking staff for overnights, and when I hit a coaching level where I can run an exped, (which I won’t until I pass my PSL) I will do just that. It’s just a bit galling that there is no ‘water only’ route to an overnight qualification. It means handing over control of an exped to another member of staff at night,
Another problem is that if I borrow a member of staff and they have to paddle as well, then they take up a slot for a cadet, it also means that they have to be trained up to the same standard. Which means finding a staff member who is a) keen to learn how to paddle, and b) willing to commit the time.) This isn’t such a problem for DofE expeds, but for other types of exped it is.
I get that a lot. I used to teach navigation on JL, which is done to a high standard. JL students are expected to navigate at night, without assistance, to an accuracy level of 10m (8 fig grid refs are the standard on the course.) Yet, no one in the AT world thinks I know how to navigate.
It’s not a question as to whether the Instructor can navigate (although that can help) it’s whether they can teach navigation which is not the same thing. (In the same way that being the best shot in the World doesn’t make you a Skill at Arms Instructor or a Coach).
Until we get away from the old Competence Through Experience mindset and until we start to embrace becoming more professional in our method of training navigation we will never get the standard raised.
I run Fieldcraft at my unit and am one of the few within my Wing to regularly deliver deployed exercises (Which I’m stepping away from us to time constraints) and considering that as a military subject it’s supposed to be all about the safe system of training I still can’t fathom how little importance it places on “safe people”.
But the assumption should be that I can navigate, until I prove otherwise, not that I can’t navigate at all because I don’t have a BEL.
When I did do a night nav exercise with the AT staff, I was horrified. They did the whole thing with torches on the whole time. Which made it almost impossible to navigate. Because it gives you tunnel vision.
Not really, as they could be a competent assistant and not factor in your ratio.
I happen to agree with this - I don’t think that enough use is made of the top up your logbook weeks for paddling. When Windermere is up and running again there will be more opportunity at least. There’s a winter paddling programme run primarily by C&E region (supported by W&W and others) for CFAVs which offers the opportunity to do more developmental paddling, and this has been very useful for progressing qualifications and experience.
Not entirely true - see winter paddling programme above. Drop me a PM and I’ll make sure you get an invite.
I think from the point of deciding I wanted to do moderate water leading / coaching, it has taken me a couple of years to get both of those under my belt with my ATC commitments as well (i.e. mainly winter paddling). It helped that I’d picked up various bits of experience in the appropriate environment over the years as well, which shortened the journey a bit. I think a lot of it is about properly having a think about what it is you want to do and working with someone to develop an action plan to get you there, and then focussing on only one thing at a time.
Over the years, whenever I’ve been trying to achieve more than one qualification at once, it’s taken significantly longer. I’ve come to the conclusion that if I’ve decided I want to be somewhere specific, I focus on that as a primary goal (one thing only - others can wait) - even if some cadet activities take a back seat, to allow me to get the requisite experience. Seems to work a lot better that way.
On the competent assistant point, yes, if they fit that bill. I did when I was a student, but we just don’t have really any interested parties in my wing. Those interested have quals.
For me, white water I do for fun. I paddle Specialist White Water Canoe (The irony of my earlier post, is that having been forced to learn how to canoe, I’m about to sell my only kayak as I don’t have the room for it as I own four canoes (Playboat, OC1, Solo Open, Prospector)) So that’s not easily catered for in the ATC. Clive will let me paddle mine if I take it, but I was advised to buy a ‘proper’ canoe for canoe awards. I have done a white water trip with cadet staff, and it was great fun, but it’s much easier to just go for a day down the Dart last minute with the club. I don’t think I would have made such a progression inside the ATC on white water, as I did outside. Particularly when I don’t live in one of the regions that runs trips regularly. I did email Trace about being put on a list of interested parties, but never heard of any of the C&E trips.
I would love to do moderate water leader (or whatever it’s called this week!) But like you say, it’s not easy to go for that and something like Canoe Leader at the same time. Canoe Leader seems to me to be more useful at this point in time. (Also, I think I’m right in saying that even with moderate water leader, you could take competent WW paddlers down white water, but not train new paddlers to that standard without a coaching qual? Which is again, more time.)
I suppose my overall point is, when you factor in all the time and experience needed to get to the stage when you can lead a trip down even a fairly benign river, needing to gain an extra walking qual, on top, just to do the camping aspect, is a bit of a burden!
Oh, and yes, I wish more people did the paddlesports weeks. It’s maddening that they are always so undersubscribed, it means that no one really gets to do the full course they want to do, as you all usually end up working together, there always has to be a compromise.
i get this, but they still need to be interested in paddle sports enough to get competant.
I have a BEL and with a neighbouring paddle sports unit jumped on a 2 star course which had spaces (i’ve had interest in kayaking since Scouts (ie before I was a Cadet)) and sure enough after some training sessions and assessment passed.
however I am yet to see any paddlesport expeditions I could join. i know that be it a morning’s paddle down the river or a full weekend adventure i wouldn’t add to the ratios, and with BEL offer something for the overnight element but yet to have the opportunity
i am not saying you’re wrong, but i believe i’m a rare case in the Wing who has 2star and BEL, in our Wing at least if you are a paddler you’re an instructor, I can’t say I know many (any*) staff who have both 2 star and BEL/AT camping equivalent and those who are 2 star but not instructors are (or were at the time) working towards instructor
*i tell a lie, when i did my 2-star course one of my fellow students was a ML holder, although i can’t tell you the last time I know of them using the qualification in anger (ie with a group and not on a personal walk)
I honestly just wish they ran any courses outside of term time.
Out of interest how much has this cost?
It’s obviously something you’ve thrown yourself into and accepted the cost element.
But to give people an idea of cost to date (and a guide to future known costs) based on: kit (‘boats’, dry/wet suits, car rack, paddles, accessories), membership fees, other fees for river usage, kit hire if you’ve needed to pay them, fuel costs, test fees (if needed to be paid) etc and how (if you had to) did you square the time with family? The time seems enough on its own, but cost and time will be a major factor for many, especially if they have family or even just a love interest.
From my limited knowledge of ‘paddlesport’, initial outlay can be high (compared to say walking) and much of it is a private venture as the ATC doesn’t provide opportunities to get the experience, as you said you joined a club.