AT Quals and the Faff that is

[steve679]

@angus

In very broad terms, I take the view that if a member of staff/Sqn can’t be trusted to take cadets to somewhere like Cannock Chase or the Cotswolds for a day’s walk, then they ought not to be a CFAV/Sqn in the first place

but this is the case - unless they have a NGB qualification

[daws1159]

@steve679

it doesn’t know
but in the world of the RAFAC it requires a qualified RCO to run an air rifles range which is another example of “overkill”

there have been calls for an “Air rifle only” RCO course, i am not sure what happened to this but has since died. we used to have a “No 8 only” WI qual for those who had no/little interest in anything larger.

Erm you can run an air rifle range with an air rifle RCO Qualification SA(AR)12, it’s one weekend instead of the normal 2 and allows you to run air rifle only, a lower risk activity. In the same way that LLA allows you to run activities in lower risk terrain where an ML or HML would be overkill.

[redowling]

@angus

In very broad terms, I take the view that if a member of staff/Sqn can’t be trusted to take cadets to somewhere like Cannock Chase or the Cotswolds for a day’s walk, then they ought not to be a CFAV/Sqn in the first place.

Whilst I don’t disagree in principle, the issue will come when they get it wrong. See previous Scout incident.

They are judged against industry norms - they’ll wheel out a massively qualified technical advisor who will point to all of the elements in an accepted syllabus that the leader failed to demonstrate competence in during their management of an incident.

[steve679]

i get that i do and not disagreeing that qualifications are useful and in many cases the student learns something.

for me, i learnt nothing new for my BEL, I had done all the tick boxes either with cadets in an “unqualified support” role on walks/camps or personally, yet still took two years to prove what everyone knew.

there could be a better route for people who are already competent by experience - even if it is a shortcut to the assesment phase.
(i appreciate that the lowland leader award is now available and i understand easier to achieve)

[steve679]

@daws1159

Erm you can run an air rifle range with an air rifle RCO Qualification SA(AR)12, it’s one weekend instead of the normal 2 and allows you to run air rifle only, a lower risk activity

brilliant - i wasn’t aware this had happened, my involvement in shooting has tailed off and my interest and knowledge has since dropped off a cliff

but then raises the question - should there be a similar trekking equivalent?

[daws1159]

@steve679

there could be a better route for people who are already competent by experience - even if it is a shortcut to the assesment phase.
(i appreciate that the lowland leader award is now available and i understand easier to achieve)

Lowland Leader is exactly this, you already have the competence through experience so can log your 20 days and the course just adds in some polishing of basic skills and makes sure you are conversant with modern day kit and emergency procedures.

@steve679

but then raises the question - should there be a similar trekking equivalent?

I would say that Lowland Leader is the Trekking equivalent.

[redowling]

@steve679

there could be a better route for people who are already competent by experience - even if it is a shortcut to the assesment phase.
(i appreciate that the lowland leader award is now available and i understand easier to achieve

This has always been the case - you can apply for exemption from attending training courses via recognised prior learning. Submit your logbook to mountain training and they’ll tell you if they think you have sufficient experience or not.

Same with HML / ML. British Canoeing are now moving to direct entry assessments - so, got loads of experience? Crack on and do an assessment. Meet the standard and you get the tick. However for many they will quickly realise there are holes in their knowledge relating to current best practice which would have been tidied up by a training course.

[steve679]

well in that case what is the debate?

get on a Lowland Leader course and stop complaining!

(for me via the BEL route it was frustrating and one i am bitter about given my personal experience, and experience of the course)

[daws1159]

I’m not one of the ones complaining!

We don’t offer BEL in my Wing, I don’t think it’s the correct award for our organisation and I think using Mountain Training as our core provider is a far better system for onward progression.

[steve679]

@redowling

This has always been the case - you can apply for exemption from attending training courses via recognised prior learning

seems that we have a solution that wasn’t available in my time when it was BEL or ML as the only options.

as this is the case, why are people kicking up a fuss about the Lowland Leader?

[anon9987823]

I still can’t help but feel that Lowland Leader is overkill for a local walk/brushing up on some nav training.

Totally understand why LL is needed and a good idea for things such as bronze DofE and then Mountain Leader for anything really adventurous.

But there you go.

[daws1159]

@steve679

as this is the case, why are people kicking up a fuss about the Lowland Leader?

Lack of knowledge of the individuals, lack of knowledge of OC’s and WATTO’s not getting off their backsides and selling qualifications.

[steve679]

@daws1159

I’m not one of the ones complaining!

i recognise that - i am just saying why is there a for and against discussion in this thread when the solution (lowland leader) covers the arguments in this thread?

[redowling]

Becuase people can’t be bothered to put in the time?

[anon9987823]

Unnecessary - people are putting the time, just into other things. A day walk really needn’t ought to require a weekend training course and weekend assessment.

[redowling]

So where do you draw the line? How ‘local’ can the walk be? What extent can they train to? Can they do night nav?

The organisation has already drawn the line - if you’ve got an EUF then you can use an approved individual becuase the ‘safe place’ element has been dealt with by approving that area.

Not got an EUF? Sorry, you’re going to have to go further afield - and as a result, you’ll be responsible for all the risk management and need a qualification that goes some way to demonstrating your competence to manage the risks associated with the environment.

[Kermit]

@daws1159

Shooting doesn’t allow people to run a range without a proper qualification and I don’t see how AT should be any different.

Very true. But the whole premise of my argument was regarding teaching a navigation exercise in a local park or similar- as part of classification training (where the park isn’t adjacent to the Sqn premises).

Granted, if you are a running a full/part day walking activity, then I would expect nothing less than an NGB award. However, two hours in a local council park is not that situation.

Perhaps if a lower award is not acceptable, we need some way of sign off via the WATTO for these specific scenarios.

[anon9987823]

@redowling

So where do you draw the line? How ‘local’ can the walk be? What extent can they train to? Can they do night nav?

I think a walk of say up to 10 miles in non challenging terrain should be fine - it’s a few hours nav practise. I’d rule night walking out, that is increasing risk, so I would have thought more experienced staff would be required for that. The extent - it’s a consolidation of classification skills - so no extra badges - if you want to train to a badge like DofE you’d need Lowland Leader which I agree with.

@redowling

The organisation has already drawn the line

That doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be challenged…

For me I’m not a massive AT sort of person, but I would be capable of running a day walk of a few hours to consolidate skills… I wouldn’t be rushing off to the peak district to run an expedition. I imagine there are a lot of people in my boat, that could better prepare cadets for DofE etc if allowed to go on a simple day walk/nav ex to consolidate basic skills.

For awarding badges, longer expeds/ DofE etc, yes, leave that to formally qualified staff.

[Moist_Van_Lipwig]

@daws1159

if you have to pay the full whack in don’t think £107 for a proper NGB qualification that you can use anywhere is a bad idea

No, you’re right, it’s not. But I still think that, for some of the stuff we do, making the LLA a requirement is overkill. For Example, how is the LLA at all relevant for running a fixed Orienteering course in a municipal park?

@daws1159

But being realistic we aren’t, we are talking about finding 10 days that you’ve already done in the past (Bronze DofE & Silver DofE is 10 days Lowland Walking for example) and putting them into your D-Log.

Maybe, Maybe not. Who logs when they went walking as part of their hobby? What if the last 10 walks didn’t quite meet the requirement for a quality lowland day? How can you meet the requirements unless you’re aware of them in the first place?

That said, LLA courses don’t run every weekend, so I appreciate that if you’re given a course date in, say three months time, you could easily do the 10 days.

@daws1159

The real issue is that Staff aren’t being sold how easy the courses actually are to achieve and are being put off by old Crusties who remember CTE and who have never moved on.

That may or may not be true, Certainly not in my wing. In my case, it was being told that it would take around 2 years before I could deliver any meaningful training to my cadets, and that was just too big of a commitment on top of everything else.

@daws1159

Lack of knowledge of the individuals, lack of knowledge of OC’s and WATTO’s not getting off their backsides and selling qualifications.

Negative. For me, at least, it was about the lack of provision in our system for staff members wanting to deliver practical navigation training.

The site I would use is safe (as proved by prior SMS applications, albeit for different activities)
The people who would deliver the training already deliver it on the unit.
The People receiving the training are the same as the ones who have previously been to the site (as proved by the previous successful events)
The material is RAFAC approved

And yet I have to go pass a course, paid for by myself, to run training with all four of those areas aligned?

[redowling]

@anon9987823

I think a walk of say up to 10 miles in non challenging terrain should be fine -

Why 10, and how do you define ‘non-challenging’?

What might be non-challenging for one individual could be extremely challenging for another.