We have bought Staff & Group First Aid kits which we have then supplemented with additional bits and pieces as required. (Head Torch & Tick Removers etc).
@redowling I have a member of staff that has Mountain Leader (Summer) do they need to complete the Expedition Skills Module to be able to run an overnight (tented) expedition?
No. Mountain Leader includes training and assessment in overnight expeditions.
That said - what it doesn’t include is remote supervision training (which is specifically included within the syllabus of the Expedition Skills Module - so they might need to do a DofE ESTC for example). But that’s a whole other can of worms!
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My OC, (ML, volunteers gor the mountain rescue service, delivers BEL) was rather bemused to be told he had to do the DofE ESTC, which he did. Only to find it was taught by a BEL he had instructed.
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Problem is, none of the syllabi (back then) included anything on remote supervision, which is where that all came from and why loads of people (myself included) had to do the ESTC, despite being MLs / BEL Tutors etc. Same principles apply - just because you’d been doing it for years, didn’t necessarily mean you’d been doing it right or in line with best practice so it was a way to standardise the expectations of the organisation on those providing remote supervision and bring everyone to the same level.
Most qualifications (including ML now having just checked the handbook, albeit it seems to be light touch) do include it, so the problem will go away over time. There’s also talk of the ESTC being combined with the EAAS course if I remember rightly, so that will also help reduce the time required.
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As an ML and paddler, I did the water-specific ESTC at Windermere just so I actually learnt something new, and as an excuse for 2 days paddling…
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So, as an update, I challenged the need to hold LLA and after some discussion there’s a small group engaged in looking at an in-house paddling focussed expedition module, which if it comes off, should negate the need to hold LLA.
It’s all centred around how AALA say you can show competence - unfortunately NGBs are the simplest and easiest route to that and in house qualifications require a decent amount of effort to set up, but we’ve started the ball rolling at least on an in-house version.
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But isn’t this one of the problems with the ATC (don’t know about other orgs) that we seem intent on having our own version of something, when there is something perfectly usable there already in the marketplace. The fact that the ATC doesn’t want to pay all or part of these I feel is more to the point. There could be funding available for external courses to get to say the first level of greatest usefulness at Sqn level. If people wish to pursue it further, then that’s all down to them. This then removes the onus on CFAV (suitably qualified and or authorised) already time pressured, as we all say, to organise and deliver.
Over the last few years I’ve been more and more inclined to use commercial operators for AT days, as it’s much less agg to organise and you can do 1 thing or have any activity day with 2 or more things. It may cost more than using CFAV, but I’ve not had any complaints.
I wish is could give this post double love to add additional emphasis of how awesome it is.
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Read the thread again. The problem in this instance is that the ATC is/was refusing to have an in house version in this instance, which was causing problems for non-walking AT activities.
The point is that there is no off the shelf paddling qualification that includes training and assessment in campcraft to the level that would be suitable for supervising DofE expeditions; only the Guide Endorsement which requires much more experience and is aimed at commercial guiding, not volunteers supervising expeds via water.
So to run a Bronze DofE exped on a canal requires you to gain two NGBs rather than just one.
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Draft syllabus is currently doing the rounds for comment. Out of interest, how much demand do you think there will be for this?
In my mind it’s currently a once-a-year course as I don’t see there being huge demand - but sufficient to warrant its creation.
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I think that’s a decent amount. would it be paddlesports specific, or open to all non walking disciplines? Like climbing or mountain biking for instance? That may improve take up.
Paddlesport specific at the moment as the technical skills associated with ‘expeditiony’ stuff are quite specific - e.g. packing and securing loads on canoes, kayaks, SUPs; paddling & rescuing loaded craft, portaging blah blah.
Plus mountain biking has an off-the-shelf exped module via MIAS anyway. Whilst a lot of the remote supervision / campcraft stuff is common it would get messy when you are trying to cram in the technical skills associated with boats & bike trailers for example.
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I would think once a year would be fine. Could you add it in to the current course list and run it over some evenings maybe? No idea how long it needs to be in terms of content but as you don’t need to be on a river (I assume) the options could be to do at the centre?
It’s currently looking to be around the same as the LLA exped module, so a Fri night / sat / sun. Not sure on venues yet but it may well be on some kind of moving water for at least part of it.
Why do you assume it doesn’t need to be on a river?
I see evenings being challenging simply because of the logistical requirements of the kit you’d need to deliver the course. Bear in mind it’ll need to have a variety of camping equipment, different types of touring craft, so on and so forth…
Because I have no idea what the content is mainly.
The guide modules are 3 days long as you need 3/5 modules. If we keep to that it wouldn’t be bad but it shouldn’t be any longer than that IMO.
It doesn’t need to be that long in my opinion. 16-18 hours is probably sufficient; my current battle is trying to stop people going over stuff that’s already covered in the paddling qualification and focussing on the additional bits we need for expeditions.
You’d probably need to do something on moving water to discuss/practice the relative merits of leashes / lashed in kit, paddling & rescuing a loaded boat on moving water etc. We shall see how it develops!
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Yes. And no. I’d argue those elements are covered on Moderate Water Leader training/assessment. I see this as a PL level course - the LLA of paddlesport for expedition/campcraft focus.
Whilst there should be an element of safety/rescue, I’d argue that it would be more aligned to the Water Based Supervision that Chris did. Keeping it largely focused on Journeying on canals/touring rivers with some open water work and touching on (but not necessarily paddling on) Moving Water.
I would like to see multicraft course as each presents different options for load out not necessarily covered on PL.
Standard campcraft like Exped module, just with a different focus on mode of travel.
I think an annual course (like water based expeds was) run for PLs and L1/2s (who are dabbling with expeds), plus those who have BEL/LLA but may not be comfortable deploying it in wet environments. Yes, they’re by extension of their qualification qualified, but may want this to hit the competence/experience box.
I can think of a 4* who’d be interested too. Her guide modules keep getting cancelled through lack of participants!!!
It’s worth remembering that the Expedition Skills Module for Lowland Leader is a joint module with Hill and Moorland Leader which is a far higher qual, if the goal is to replicate that then some river work might be in order.
Big chunks can be lifted direct from the ESM, Campcraft, Menu Selection, Cooking,Tent Selection, additional bits like what Cookers and Water Filters are available, but the water based not needs to be to a high enough standard for all of those likely to use it.