I know that air cadet officers are commissioned in the RAF VR(T), and I have heard that army cadet have TA(B) commissions. I think SCC officers not have ‘proper’ commissions, but is this true for the CCF(Navy) officers?
No CCF(RN) officers do not have a commission, they are ‘appointed’. They have the same ranks as the RN instead their rank braid is “wavy”
read this for more info, section 2 - 11006:
http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/News-and-Events/Reference-Library/~/media/Files/Navy-PDFs/News-and-Events/Naval%20Publications/BR%203/br3book/ch110.pdf
Correct.
All SCC and CCF(RN) officers hold a commission but not a Queens Commission, its issued by the Lord Lieutenant. They are afforded the same courtesies as any other officer.
Can you show me where that is written? It’s news to me.
I keep hearing the terms ‘cadet commission’, ‘appointed officers’, Lord Lieutenant’s Commission’ and my personal favourite ‘by grace and favour’. None of this appears in Sea Cadet Regulations (SCR) the Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) or anywhere else.
We are 100% civilian, Captain Sea Cadets (CSC) can appoint CFAVs as officers. Ranks match the RN/RM with (SCC) afterwards. Individuals appointed as officers and warrant officers are entitled by the MoU to use the post nominals RNR/RMR. We are not part of that organisation. This is specifically stated in SCR and MoU., both available on the SCC Headquarters website.
Or if you prefer it from the RN’s perspective :
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=sea%20cadet%20officer%20commission&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CFgQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.royalnavy.mod.uk%2FNews-and-Events%2FReference-Library%2F~%2Fmedia%2FFiles%2FNavy-PDFs%2FNews-and-Events%2FNaval%20Publications%2FBR%203%2Fbr3book%2Fch110.pdf&ei=qR2JUfiFH62q4APDxYHoDw&usg=AFQjCNHL09mMS_bJhiQ6nxsxmo2OW2T5FQ
bomberman I know the RN perspective, I am in it.
I found the line in one of BRs or QRRN. I will try and find it again and let you know. With the SCC status, the RN references are scattered in different place.
Cannot find the LLt bit currently but Have found that SCC Officers are appointed officers to the Navy list under section 6 as SCC RNR and it is classed as an official appointment and bars them from NCO appointment in the reserve force.
So under JSP 814 SCC are not commission but are Appointed Officers
Definitive answer…
[quote]RN Book of Reference (BR)3, Naval Personnel Management, wrote:
CHAPTER 101, REGULATIONS AND ORGANISATION OF NAVAL AND MARINE RESERVE FORCES
SECTION 2 - MARITIME RESERVE COMMAND AND ORGANISATION
- Structure of the RNR
a. List Structure. Members of the RNR may serve on one of eight lists:
(1) List 1. Seagoing Merchant Navy officers and specialist Medical and Nursing
officers only.
(2) List 2. The RNR Air Branch is divided into three sub-divisions of officers and
ratings:
(a) List 2A. Flying.
(b) List 2B. Operational Support.
c) List 2C. Air Engineering.
(3) List 3. The main RNR List for officers and ratings.
(4) List 4. Trained officers and ratings not required, willing, or able to meet the
List 3 commitment of 24 days Annual Training.
(5) List 5. Trained officers and ratings not required, willing or able to meet the
List 4 commitment of 18 days Annual Training.
(6) List 6. A holding list for officers and ratings unable to meet any training
commitment for in excess of one year but for no longer than three years.
(7) List 7. A list designed to meet the specific needs of RN support to Youth and
Cadet training, the University Royal Naval Units (URNUs) and the RN Defence
Technical Undergraduate Scheme (DTUS) (formerly the Engineering Sponsorship Scheme (ESS)). Members of this List have no call-out liability and form no part of the Maritime Reserves (see Chapter 110). The list is for pay purposes only and is sub-divided as follows:
(a) List 7A. RNR (Time Only) Temporary Officers recruited to assist with URNU training and administration.
(b) List 7B. URNU Undergraduates.
© List 7C. Members of the RN Defence Technical Undergraduate Scheme (DTUS).
(8) The Sponsored Reserve List. This List is for those personnel who are subject to the liabilities provided for in RFA 96 Part 5. They will have taken on these liabilities so that they may be given Naval training and be available to be called out, as an extension of their peacetime employment, to continue to provide support to the Royal Navy on operations. Regulations for Sponsored Reserve service are provided in BR64 and are administered by NPT(RES)
Note: [color=#ff0000]Sea Cadet Corp (SCC) and Combined Cadet Force (CCF) officers, formerly List 8 of the RNR, are now members of the “SCC and CCF” List.[/color] Detailed regulations for the administration of the CCF are contained in JSP 313 and the RN supplement. [color=#ff0000]Members of this List have honorary RNR status only, and are not considered to be members of a Reserve Force as defined by RFA 96.[/color]
[/quote]
So - honorary RNR only, not legally members of the Reserve Forces. QED - no Queens Commission …indeed no commission full stop.
A friend of mine was recently notified that her service was no longer required by the SCC, and I asked this very question re. her commission. She told me that the “commission” SCC Officers hold is a Marine Society and Sea Cadet Corps(MSSC) commission - BR3 supports this.
I too have heard the “Lord Lieutenant’s commission” thing before - never managed to find any evidence of it.
Cheers
BTI
All the above is absolutely true (in my CCF the only military personnel are the Army & RAF officers, even the SSI is a civilian in uniform, ironically given that he is an ex-regular WO1).
The Lord-L’s commission has been mooted as a possible future for a ‘CFAV’ commission but no decision has been taken. I’m not even sure if it’s been discussed officially though I keep hearing mention on the grapevine. It would have the benefit of exempting us from RFA96 but the disadvantage that we no longer came under QRs and I’m not sure, for example, where that leaves the CoC on a station camp.
T
Frankly, I’ve never met people so obsessed by rank and status as people who’ve never actually held either. I’m an ex-CWO in the ATC, and subsequently commissioned officer in the RN for a number of years and will shortly be taking up an appointment as an “officer” in the SCC. Strictly speaking, SCC/CCF(RN) officers don’t hold the Queen’s Commission, whereas, indeed, RAFVR(T) officers do. But does anyone really care - aren’t we all in it for the good of the young people in the organisations, not a desperate attempt at a bit of gold braid a few ego-boosting salutes?
A focus on the important things required me thinks.
[quote=“JOHNNY74” post=8102]Frankly, I’ve never met people so obsessed by rank and status as people who’ve never actually held either. I’m an ex-CWO in the ATC, and subsequently commissioned officer in the RN for a number of years and will shortly be taking up an appointment as an “officer” in the SCC. Strictly speaking, SCC/CCF(RN) officers don’t hold the Queen’s Commission, whereas, indeed, RAFVR(T) officers do. But does anyone really care - aren’t we all in it for the good of the young people in the organisations, not a desperate attempt at a bit of gold braid a few ego-boosting salutes?
A focus on the important things required me thinks.[/quote]
Well said, from my experience we have far too many individuals who believe that they genuinely are front line RAF.
We are youth workers who are allowed to wear an RAF uniform and the vast majority of us does it well and bring no disgrace to it.
The true focus should be benefiting the cadets.
Funnily enough I was reading a book (‘The impact of war on the cadet movement’ or something like that, can’t remember the author) recently which revealed that up to WW1 at least, cadet force commissions were from the Lord Lieutenant. That would provide a model for any proposal to move back in that direction. The change seems to have come about after WW1 perhaps because there were so many officers on the recall list anyway.
[quote=“JOHNNY74” post=8102]Frankly, I’ve never met people so obsessed by rank and status as people who’ve never actually held either. I’m an ex-CWO in the ATC, and subsequently commissioned officer in the RN for a number of years and will shortly be taking up an appointment as an “officer” in the SCC. Strictly speaking, SCC/CCF(RN) officers don’t hold the Queen’s Commission, whereas, indeed, RAFVR(T) officers do. But does anyone really care - aren’t we all in it for the good of the young people in the organisations, not a desperate attempt at a bit of gold braid a few ego-boosting salutes?
A focus on the important things required me thinks.[/quote]
Agree with you so much I cant say!!
In my experiance its the people that never served in the Forces that do this (im not saying they all do BTW)
The obsession does become a little worrying. In my last sea-going appointment, I was SCC Liaison Officer. We welcomed on-board some SCC affiliated units for a voyage from Gib’ back to the UK. Their officers were billeted in the wardroom and extended all of the courtesies that a regular officer would receive - by the ship’s company, and perhaps more tellingly, by the captain. A captain who, I may add, went on to Vice-Admiral rank, knighted and appointed as Governor-General of an overseas territory. I take my lead from him - if he was content, then so am I!!