Another attack at AEF staff. I suppose these days it’s easy for people to get offended or are they just taking things the wrong way.
I have to agree with Nickel and not just because he’s another AEF pilot. We are all in this together and need to understand the limitations from both sides. Stabs at the people who are providing one of the core activities the Air Cadets has to offer is not helping.
I’ve had the privilidge to see things from both sides of the fence. I’ve been a cadet, a CI. An ATC Sqn OC, a VGS instructor, a VGS OC and an AEF Pilot. I’m sure there are others on here with similar experience.
We’re all here to give cadets the best experience we can and individuals suggesting that AEFs aren’t doing that needs to think about what they’re saying? I know from experience that my AEF works hard to achieve the best possible outcome for our visitors.
We’re all human however and sometimes we don’t get it right, but we are pilots so are nearly perfect…
The staff member concerned would have to be “qualified” to supervise / teach any such concurrent activity. In general, the staff member concerned is probably the only person available on the day to drive the sqn mini-bus!
It’s not just the sqn staff member / cadets who get b*ggered around by cancellations, it is also the parents who have to drop off at the sqn at 0700 hrs or whatever, & might then be summoned back at 1100 hrs in order to collect their offspring after a cancellation. The whole procedure has to be a sensible balance of probabilities - cancel too early = too much of a penalty if the weather then proves to be acceptable; cancel too late = a big penalty, as everyone is on the road.
Personally, I’m for the “minimise the b*ggeration” factor - everyone has got much better things to do at home rather than pitch up to an AEF to do vague & wonderful concurrent activities.
We have provided the tools for visiting cadets and staff to present a concurrent activity. We have a PC with a DVD player and a projector and screen. Each wing we look after has their own folder to put whatever they want in there be it powerpoint presentations or even educational videos. Have these been used in the 5 years they have been in situ? NO!! Why? because the staff can’t be bothered even though we have spoken to the WAvOs on numerous occasions. I have asked the Regional AvOs for STEM kits but been told no.
We are fortunate that there are some activities the cadets can use whilst on station. We have the low ropes, never been used by visiting cadets or staff even though WAvOs have been told and plenty of open space for cadets to do such things as weapons training. Never been done.
We do have a simulator which we try to ensure each cadet gets a 20 minute trip in whether they fly in the Tutor or not. Its not use as a game but an instructional tool however, we dont have anyone qualified to run it as you have to have done a course for that and the sim be approved by HQAC which will then make it a PTT!!!
The attitude of some of the visiting staff is that they pitch up, get a days pay and the AEF staff are responsible for the cadets during the day. WRONG!! we take responsibility when we walk them out to the dispersal and back. Thats where it starts and finishes. As I’ve said before, there are quite a few CFAVs who get paid more for sitting about drinking tea that our pilots do for working a 10 hour day.
Please take into consideration many of our pilots are volunteers, just like you, who give up their days off to fly cadets, just like you. They dont have to but they do because once they were Air Cadets and want to give something back. So the next time someone starts to mouth off about the 2 winged master race, just remember that without them, cadets wouldn’t fly at all!!
Sadly our budget is controlled by 6FTS and as a whole 22GP. There is no money for anything, anywhere.
Maybe things have changed, but the last time I was at 10AEF, we were told we couldn’t use the IT equipment…
With regards to concurrent activities at AEF/VGS , whilst things like low ropes and weapons training sound good on paper, how practical are they? AEF/VGS details are often staffed at a minimum - we get told each unit should provide 1 member of staff, and there are often few spare seats on the transport available for extra staff to run concurrent activities (bearing in mind there are still duties for the escorting staff to perform that mean they can’t supervise other activities).
Let’s say 3 squadrons get an allocation of 4 places each. That’s a full minibus, or 3 full cars. Extra staff will then need to transport themselves (possible at their own cost, as the transport budget is spent on essential journeys only). Moving weapons is a faff, especially if your unit doesn’t hold any. And how many squadrons have people that hold the required qualifications/experience to run a low ropes course? Even if you have a staff member who can run it, they won’t want to tip out to every AEF/VGS allocations your Wing gets, which means some sqns will end up doing naff all.
It’s a big ask to get one squadron to take on the planning, sms application and approval process, when you might end up binning the detail after 10 mins due to weather.
I personally don’t see anything wrong with a bit time doing nothing/watching top gun. Modern life is so full of pressure for our charges, that sitting in a room and chatting with their mates might seem more attractive than getting up early.
There are two quite different things in discussion here - contingency activity and concurrent activity.
I agree wholeheartedly that the AEF staff shouldn’t be expected to provide the latter - their primary focus should be on flying (although it would be useful if the format for activities was provided by the AEF - which doesn’t necessarily mean the AEF staff themselves need to plan it, just that it be available for visitors where appropriate).
It’s the question of whether it’s reasonable for AEF personnel to provide activities for cadets when they can’t fly.
We are required to supply 2 staff members
1 to complete the log sheet and supervise the cadets getting fitted with flying gear as the staff don’t have PVGs and the other staff member to supervise at all times the cadets waiting to be called for fitting.
This is why if the AEF has a concurrent activity for a member of staff to run in my eyes it wouldn’t be a problem.
Obviously with 1 member of staff it’s harder and I can understand where aef staff on here are maybe thinking I’m trying to ditch everything into them.
Unfortunately we all get that everywhere and it’s sadly quite frequent.
That’s just a poor attitude.
Maybe it’s me but having been the one to of taken my cadets to the aef for the last 5 years if something was available I would use it, Anything is better than sitting watching some video for the umpteenth time
The over riding question is do the cadets want to do something? It’s not about staff point scoring doing this and that, like Infant School kids birthday competition.
The most kit we needed was a football, hours of fun and running around.
Frankly I quite like a day where I can do a little bit, read the paper, read a book, do a crossword or just chill. I’ there essentially if it goes wrong with the cadets in my charge.
WRT cadets even pre electronic gadgets cadets didn’t need staff arranging “interesting” activities and now where phones etc are in constant use, leave them to it.
I don’t know of any cadets who have refused a tour around a hanger or a look at the survival gear, or whatever else is on offer.
I think expecting the CFAV who is bringing the cadets to the AEF to have a backup plan in case the weather is crap may be going above and beyond the call of duty.
I’m a young CFAV, I work full time and have a young family. Chances are that I’m using a rare day off to take kids flying. If given the chance, I will likely return home if there’s no flying because I already attend two nights a week plus weekends. This doesn’t includes the planning work I do at home for cadets on an evening.
Some basic ground work would be better than a Topgun rerun for the 50th time. Although I’m sure AEF have their own pressures and I am not pretending that I know the ins and outs of their role because I definitely do not.
At the end of the day, we are all in the same game here and we shouldn’t be making jabs at each other’s roles or commitment…
I think some escorting staff would much rather get home early and therefore their influence means that as soon as it’s clear there’s no flying, they’re off.
If there are sufficient AEF staff there and the staff/ cadets want to stay then there may be an opportunity to do something at the AEF.
The suggestion that because the weather has affected a visit, the AEF are solely responsible for providing an alternative to flying that suits that particular group of visitors on a particular day is unrealistic. If the AEF staff would also benefit from leaving early then perhaps you should be prepared to be told there’s nothing else on offer?
Those that feel AEFs should offer something else as the norm if the weather affects flying I would suggest you make contact with your wing AvO/ Region AvO so that your suggestions can be fed through to the AEF OCs?
Let’s be honest though, literally any staff pilot, QFI, or holdie pilot on the squadron could do a lesson on met/the tutor/any other aviation subject they could think of. I’ve never had the pleasure of holding on an AEF/UAS squadron, but there’s nothing particularly strenuous about that. It takes about an hour and at least the cadets get something out of the day. Yes the staff aren’t obliged to do this, but it’s just lazy not to because they want to cut away and go mow the lawn. Remember why you are in the organisation? It’s not to get more P1 hours in the book, it’s to provide an experience to the CADETS. I’m taking some cadets flying soon and if the met sucks then I’d hope someone would teach them something, or funnily enough I’ll do it myself…
Cadets get so little exposure to aviation these days, let alone “military” aviation, so if they end up in a military squadron on an raf base surrounded by military aircraft and personnel then the journey shouldn’t be wasted. The squadron should put on some training for cadets to give them some awareness of the knowledge a military pilot needs.
Dinna be lazy.
Flying is IMO all we should be going for. But there seems to be this culture of needing to entertain cadets at every turn.
Not sure about yourself but if there’s no flying I have a list of things to do at home and as suggested so will the AEF staff. So the idea of hanging around for the sake of it has zero appeal. I suppose if the AEF is “just up the road” then you might want to hang around, but a couple of hours drive with all the joy of roads to look forward to, getting on them heading home is the priority.
One of the joys of the RAF is the stations with airfields are in the backside of nowhere and have normally shut for normal business by 3pm on Friday. So when we go on a Saturday or Sunday all the talk of a visit to this or that is just talk. Hence why we are left to our own devices until Monday AM on annual camps.
Don’t worry, 109115. I can see both sides of the coin here and I have agreed with you about most CFAVs wanting to go home early, me often being one of them as I explained why in my answer. I already give plenty of my time to this organisation… often to the frustration if my partner.
I also agree that you people must have your own pressures and limits. I just think there must be an alternative to sticking on a DVD, whether this alternative is delivered by us or AEF.
Furthermore, surely it depends on the time of the day? If it is early then I’m sure a quick ground lesson on the Tutors characteristics wouldn’t be too much to ask? All day activities are unrealistic, but a quick one hour or so talk wouldn’t be too much hassle?
Like I say this isn’t an attack, merely just a suggestion.
I might be missing something here but wasn’t the whole point of RACs to build in contingencies for AEFs; to offer a day/weekend of of activities to stop the hanging around…
