How big is your allocation, though? Would you still be able to staff it if the JIs stipulated at least 1 AFA, for example?
On average, we had 3 staff per AEF detail…
The over riding question is do the cadets want to do something? It’s not about staff point scoring doing this and that, like Infant School kids birthday competition.
The most kit we needed was a football, hours of fun and running around.
Frankly I quite like a day where I can do a little bit, read the paper, read a book, do a crossword or just chill. I’ there essentially if it goes wrong with the cadets in my charge.
WRT cadets even pre electronic gadgets cadets didn’t need staff arranging “interesting” activities and now where phones etc are in constant use, leave them to it.
We get an allocation per sqn of 4 or 6 cadets normally to be accompanied with 2 staff
You either get a morning or afternoon slot
Fly, presumably.
If that’s not possible, why not try and do the next best thing?
I don’t know of any cadets who have refused a tour around a hanger or a look at the survival gear, or whatever else is on offer.
I think expecting the CFAV who is bringing the cadets to the AEF to have a backup plan in case the weather is crap may be going above and beyond the call of duty.
I’m a young CFAV, I work full time and have a young family. Chances are that I’m using a rare day off to take kids flying. If given the chance, I will likely return home if there’s no flying because I already attend two nights a week plus weekends. This doesn’t includes the planning work I do at home for cadets on an evening.
Some basic ground work would be better than a Topgun rerun for the 50th time. Although I’m sure AEF have their own pressures and I am not pretending that I know the ins and outs of their role because I definitely do not.
At the end of the day, we are all in the same game here and we shouldn’t be making jabs at each other’s roles or commitment…
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I think some escorting staff would much rather get home early and therefore their influence means that as soon as it’s clear there’s no flying, they’re off.
If there are sufficient AEF staff there and the staff/ cadets want to stay then there may be an opportunity to do something at the AEF.
The suggestion that because the weather has affected a visit, the AEF are solely responsible for providing an alternative to flying that suits that particular group of visitors on a particular day is unrealistic. If the AEF staff would also benefit from leaving early then perhaps you should be prepared to be told there’s nothing else on offer?
Those that feel AEFs should offer something else as the norm if the weather affects flying I would suggest you make contact with your wing AvO/ Region AvO so that your suggestions can be fed through to the AEF OCs?
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Let’s be honest though, literally any staff pilot, QFI, or holdie pilot on the squadron could do a lesson on met/the tutor/any other aviation subject they could think of. I’ve never had the pleasure of holding on an AEF/UAS squadron, but there’s nothing particularly strenuous about that. It takes about an hour and at least the cadets get something out of the day. Yes the staff aren’t obliged to do this, but it’s just lazy not to because they want to cut away and go mow the lawn. Remember why you are in the organisation? It’s not to get more P1 hours in the book, it’s to provide an experience to the CADETS. I’m taking some cadets flying soon and if the met sucks then I’d hope someone would teach them something, or funnily enough I’ll do it myself…
Cadets get so little exposure to aviation these days, let alone “military” aviation, so if they end up in a military squadron on an raf base surrounded by military aircraft and personnel then the journey shouldn’t be wasted. The squadron should put on some training for cadets to give them some awareness of the knowledge a military pilot needs.
Dinna be lazy.
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Flying is IMO all we should be going for. But there seems to be this culture of needing to entertain cadets at every turn.
Not sure about yourself but if there’s no flying I have a list of things to do at home and as suggested so will the AEF staff. So the idea of hanging around for the sake of it has zero appeal. I suppose if the AEF is “just up the road” then you might want to hang around, but a couple of hours drive with all the joy of roads to look forward to, getting on them heading home is the priority.
One of the joys of the RAF is the stations with airfields are in the backside of nowhere and have normally shut for normal business by 3pm on Friday. So when we go on a Saturday or Sunday all the talk of a visit to this or that is just talk. Hence why we are left to our own devices until Monday AM on annual camps.
Don’t worry, 109115. I can see both sides of the coin here and I have agreed with you about most CFAVs wanting to go home early, me often being one of them as I explained why in my answer. I already give plenty of my time to this organisation… often to the frustration if my partner.
I also agree that you people must have your own pressures and limits. I just think there must be an alternative to sticking on a DVD, whether this alternative is delivered by us or AEF.
Furthermore, surely it depends on the time of the day? If it is early then I’m sure a quick ground lesson on the Tutors characteristics wouldn’t be too much to ask? All day activities are unrealistic, but a quick one hour or so talk wouldn’t be too much hassle?
Like I say this isn’t an attack, merely just a suggestion.
I might be missing something here but wasn’t the whole point of RACs to build in contingencies for AEFs; to offer a day/weekend of of activities to stop the hanging around…
yes you’re right precisely a contingency.
however of our two closest RACS only one is on the same location as a AEF
and the AEF we visit is at neither and is without a RAC!
This, this and a thousand times more this!
I wound’t be expecting the full 4 hours we expected to be at the AEF to be filled with a contingency plan. but hell lets make something of the day and make it worthwhile for the Cadets (and CFAVs) who drag their butts out of bed at oh-my-its-early o’clock to say that got something out of it more than a 3 hour (or more) round trip in a coach.
I understand the desire to turnaround and rush back home, but if you (CFAVs) we happy to commit to the AEF escorting then stick around for an hour. Your family aren’t expecting you back home until XXhrs, and you assigned the day to AEF so its a bonus to get that job done when you get home, not a priority.
I have been to a selection of interesting talks delivered by RAF personnel and the Cadets have loved them. OK so these were specialist events, set up in advance with a known speaker on a known interesting subject, typically about their time on a operation or exercise which gained particular interest and is an entertaining story
And yes i know not every AEF pilot will double hat as a Chinook pilot who has taken small arms fire in theatre or be a fast jet pilot and can talk about escorting Air Force One into British Skies and have the slide deck to match the story ready to hand, but consider one of the elements Cadets really enjoy: talking to RAF personnel
They always enjoy it. be it at an annual camp, or simply at an air show - Cadets love talking to the RAF and even more so now we have a “Selfie” culture
99% Cadets love flying, and many will exclaim they’re going to be a RAF pilot or are otherwise inspired by the experience when asked what they thought about their 20 minutes
the next best thing i have seen influence Cadets to the same degree is hear from someone inspirational.
Often this has been an after dinner speech at a Squadron event (dining in or awards night).
A local RAF veteran offers a 10-15 minute piece on their life in the RAF, invited in the hope there is some inspiration and aspiration for the Cadets to follow in their footsteps.
As I say the average AEF pilot won’t have a “best seller” story to tell, but they do have pilot knowledge, understanding and experience which they could use to inspire in other ways than flying. Why not offer an hours “day in the life” style story of being an RAF pilot? or as Foley suggests some of the theory that goes behind flying?
From an hours chat:
the Cadets will be entertained, perhaps learn something and could even be inspired.
the day becomes worthwhile as the Cadets got something from the day, while the CFAVs still get home sooner than expected without hanging around longer than feels necessary (ie filling the full 4 hour afternoon slot)
It would seem @Foley has that approach, it would be appreciated if others did to, at least offered an alternative to going home straightaway.
I have been in those situations and would rather get home 3 hours sooner having achieved something from the day, than 4 hours early and say all i achieved was a detailed understanding the comfort of the coach seat
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And this sometimes happens but is of course dependant upon staff availability and or willingness. All AEF pilots are perfectly capable of delivering an interest talk for an hour. I don’t think it’s lazyness on behalf of the AEF, but may be more of a cultural thing. Some AEF pilots don’t have an Air Cadet background and may be reluctant to volunteer to deliver a talk to 20-30 cadets, but are quite comfortable delivering an air experience sortie on a one to one basis?
Some AEFs have access to better facilities than others. Some have other aviation based facilities near by, for example the museum at Cosford or access to a PTT.
I think if visiting cadets or staff tell us what they want on a day to day basis we can tell them whether we can deliver on that request or not?
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Nailed it. Of the cadets I know, the only time they ever really get to speak to a pilot is at an AEF - and then they are normally so overwhelmed by the whole “flying” thing, its rarely a full on “chat”.
If the flying isn’t taking place, then a 30min conversation between a member of the AEF and a group of cadets about pilot school, aviation, their career etc is still going to be worthwhile. Suddenly it makes a 4-6 hour round trip worthwhile - they’ve had an experience they wouldn’t normally have had, hopefully got an insight into the RAF/military flying, and had a Q&A so they can ask questions pertinent to them. You dont need to be “qualified” in anything other than being a human being to talk about this stuff. Hell, you could deliver your experiences of Basic training in the 1970s and the cadets will still be totally wide eyed and enthralled.
Even a member of Babcock ground crew spending 20mins explaining the walk around checks on an airframe would give them more of a practical insight into airframes than your average CFAV will ever be able to deliver!!!
You’ll be amazed at how little preparation that actually requires, it can be rolled out in the 10mins after the decision has been made to cancel, will take 30mins and suddenly the impact of the weather has been lessened as people - hopefully in both camps - will feel something has been achieved.
But, it needs a bit of a culture shift in both camps. And yes, it was suggested to RAvO some years back. I’ll be suggesting it again shortly.
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Is your attitude to all cadet activities that you’d rather be at home and are waiting for an excuse, or is it just flying?
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The Points made about the RACs above is exactly spot on. Someone needs to get a grip and make this model work properly.
Get rid of the AEF concept and instead of flying slots create aviation training days (or whatever you want to call them). Merge the AGSs into that and we then have trained pilots, groundschool staff with PTTs. These deliver aviation training - show cadets the aircraft, have a go at PTT, meet pilots and do meteorology, air nav, visit air traffic etc and of course fly- subject to acceptable conditions. If flying can’t happen the day hasn’t been a waste.
All of the infrastructure is there now so it just needs someone to inject some leadership and make it work. They do it for aerospace camp and this will reach far more cadets.
If the RAF decides to bin VGS and AEF for a single powered aircraft (fixed wing microlight) for all cadet aviation then this model will fit that nicely.
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Having just read the whole thread, I felt I would like to put another POV. I’ve been taking cadets flying at our AEF for 3 years now. Most times most of them get to fly. There are times when it gets binned, either at the start, or part way through. Every occasion I’ve been there, there has been something sorted for cadets to do. On one occasion, the flights sims were brought into action, another time cadets were taken into one of the hangars and given a tour of the Tucanos that are flown from there. Every cadet got to sit inside the aircraft and had an indepth talk with the UAS pilots escorting us. Last time, the weather got the better of the flying as low cloud and fog came in. However, 3 Apaches had flown in and were grounded by the weather. So we were offered a tour by the pilots, who spent a lot of time talking with the cadets and showing them around the aircraft. As couple of posters have said, inspirational, a complete surprise and much appreciated by everyone.
As a CI I dont get paid, apart from mileage and the pleasure of giving our cadets this experience. I do give up my time to do this, but its so worthwhile to me. But I would like to add something else, which is a frustration at our AEF and I imagine at others too. What about those squadrons who dont turn up, who dont notify the AEF that they’re not turning up, who assume that a look out of their window in the morning is going to decide whether its flying weather or not. Having talked with Babcock staff and the pilots, it is a frustration, especially for pilots who have given up their time, prepped for the day and then end up doing the sitting around on the off chance that cadets are going to show. I’ve come with our allocated 4 cadets, knowing I could have filled those spaces 3 times over, to find that there are spaces on the day, due to no shows. To me, it’s bad manners to not at least notify if you’re not going to turn up!
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Not at all. Our AEF was about 2-2½ and is now 2½-3 hours drive, if you’ve get told flying’s not happening what would you do, get home at a reasonable time or do something just to amuse the cadets?
Would I rather completely waste 6 hours, or have an 8 hour day including a couple of hours in which cadets actually get something useful out of the experience? Easy one.
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Diff’rent strokes me old mucker. But if you want to knock, crack on, because it bothers me not. I know what I’m happy with.