Many thanks
may have
changed now that CCFâs fall under regions
ACP 20 still has distinct a application process for ATC vs VGS vs CCF applicants into the CFC. Thatâs separate I think.
not for longâŚ
Just me thinking out loud. No intent to cause offenceâŚ
Reference a couple of previous comments, worth noting that acting pilot officers certainly used to be common following Cranwell if you werenât an ex-ranker or graduate. You were still very much commissioned and it was a weird status to hold (for about 6 months), but it was very much a thing.
You wouldnât have any white on your uniform, but would obviously be saluted and indistinguishable from a ânormalâ pilot officer.
In many ways it feels like this step away from VR(T) commissions and towards a CFC further eroded the link to the parent service. At what point does it become absolutely ridiculous that regulars have to worry about whether or not to salute CFAVs and their weird visual tweaks to the rank system?
Surely better to leave people as officer cadets until theyâve been trained in the ways of the force? It makes absolutely no difference to their volunteeringâŚ
At some point, why even bother with officers for anything but specific, very experienced CFAV positions (or ex-regulars/reserves who decide they want to volunteer)?
And can anyone confirm why we still donât start non-commissioned CFAVs at the most junior ranks? If itâs not the RAF, why do we need to be starting at Sgt? That seems even weirder than keeping all officers as flying officers unless theyâre doing a specific role.
Ramblings of a mad man, but help resolving my ignorance much appreciated!
The problem with that was that our Officer Cadets were still to be saluted because their was no such thing.
Why not just accept that Pilot Officer is a training rank and go back to just wearing Pilot Officer on appointment?
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No such thing where?
Iâve been an officer cadet twice - on the UAS and during IOT.
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I cannot âconfirmâ but there are plenty of good reasons why not starting at Sgt makes life difficult - and is best answered by asking âwhy should uniform ranks start below Sgt?â
Sgt is the lowest rank in the RAFAC for CFAVs
CIs moving into NCO uniform are âdemotedâ to the JR mess and with it only get JR privileges (read restrictions) - these can include no access to courses or opportunities as these are limited to SNCO ranks and above (shooting is an example of this, a Cpl cannot be an RCO - so a CI who may have been an effective RCO for 10 years now has to wait for promotion to Sgt before they can continue their skill).
It also complicates elements if using Station messes, as staff can now be split three ways instead of two - with the most junior of Staff likely to be left on their own versus the rest of the Staff team who are SNCOs or Officers.
The rank of Sgt is a Senior rank and thus taken âseriouslyâ when putting in requests. OASC candidates which are not officers are Sgts due to the role and responsibility they have - they have the rank (authority) to ask people for things and be taken seriously.
A CFAV who is at SAC rank is less likely to be taken seriously than a Sgt by the regulars when requesting accommodation, weapons, kit or other facilities etc.
there is no benefit in starting at Cpl (or below) as the NCO rank structure has no rank = role. A Sgt on one unit could be doing the same role as a WO on the neighbouring Sqn. the suggestion in having Cpl (or lower) only serves to identify the CFAV as âinexperiencedâ
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That would indeed be a viable option.
Although if the point is that you need to go through some credibility training before walking around indistinguishable from an officer, you should either be identifiable as such, or if the system canât handle creating a new position properly, without causing extra confusion, you should remain in civilian clothing until youâre trained.
Being an âACâ or whatever theyâre called these days until youâre a trained sgt or plt off would be a way to work around it.
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Yes they can.
That was the thing, VR(T) never had Officer Cadets so when we had them they were âacting downâ as such they still wore pins, didnât wear hat bands and were entitled to be saluted.
Basically the same as now, but still unnecessary.
Personally I think what we have is a solution on search of a problem.
There was no widespread issue with people who hadnât been to ATF being imbeciles. Letâs be honest what do you learn on your initial course that really makes a difference to what is expected of you walking round a camp in uniform?
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All interesting points.
On the experience point, was this considered when demoting CFAV officers to fg off whenever theyâre no longer doing a senior role?
Apologies that Iâm now straying off topic. Wonât ask a follow-up!
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Couldnât speak to that, but I had indeed assumed the answer would be ânothingâ.
Makes you wonder if the wavy navy rank slides have a good point in making it incredibly clear that the CFAV is not of the same world.
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Which is where we couldâve kept wearing our VR(T) pins even after the change to the commission.
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Agreed with the above, for me the only time I could think of when a Cpl rank could be beneficial is for when a Staff Cadet at Cadet Sgt or above goes straight into uniform and rather than going to the old fashioned âAdult Sgtâ could fill the training role of âAdult Cplâ until they reach a set number of years service. On camps it could be beneficial to have a staff member that is in uniform in the JRMs
CCF are coming under regions for administrative purposes rather than command so they donât have a regional commandant, just a B2 civil servant.
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If your going down that route the Corporal Rank would be the pre-course rank and as such they wouldnât be on Camp anyway. (Well not routinely)
If your going that way for former Staff Cadets then you could go that way for all newly appointed SNCOâs and it wouldnât make any difference.
apologies - I stand corrected.
I am sure there are some such tasks (perhaps in AT rather than shooting) that I recall a SI we had wasnât allowed on the course simply because they were a Cpl
***WARNING WARNING WARNING
THREAD DESCENDING INTO ADULT CPL THREAD
IMMEDIATE ACTIONS REQUIRED***
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I have a regional commandantâŚformally or informally is another thing
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