I’ve not seen anything definitive to say that the rules have changed and the rules were always that Officer pre-ATF were still saluted no matter what we called them.
Can APO’s attend Blue Camps, are there any issues surrounding this that you know of?
If a member of staff is in their probationary period, then they need dispensation at regional level to attend any event off the squadron, except for personal training events ie AFA.
So if an APO wants to attend an annual camp, they’d need to get their OC Wing to get them dispensation from OC Region.
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However this rule doesn’t apply to CCF APO’s…. So if it’s a CCF Organised Camp would this rule not apply?
Good point. The screenshot there is from the ATC application bit. The CCF application bit doesn’t have that condition. So I don’t know! @Farmerdan may be able to advise.
Many thanks
may have
changed now that CCF’s fall under regions
ACP 20 still has distinct a application process for ATC vs VGS vs CCF applicants into the CFC. That’s separate I think.
not for long…
Just me thinking out loud. No intent to cause offence…
Reference a couple of previous comments, worth noting that acting pilot officers certainly used to be common following Cranwell if you weren’t an ex-ranker or graduate. You were still very much commissioned and it was a weird status to hold (for about 6 months), but it was very much a thing.
You wouldn’t have any white on your uniform, but would obviously be saluted and indistinguishable from a “normal” pilot officer.
In many ways it feels like this step away from VR(T) commissions and towards a CFC further eroded the link to the parent service. At what point does it become absolutely ridiculous that regulars have to worry about whether or not to salute CFAVs and their weird visual tweaks to the rank system?
Surely better to leave people as officer cadets until they’ve been trained in the ways of the force? It makes absolutely no difference to their volunteering…
At some point, why even bother with officers for anything but specific, very experienced CFAV positions (or ex-regulars/reserves who decide they want to volunteer)?
And can anyone confirm why we still don’t start non-commissioned CFAVs at the most junior ranks? If it’s not the RAF, why do we need to be starting at Sgt? That seems even weirder than keeping all officers as flying officers unless they’re doing a specific role.
Ramblings of a mad man, but help resolving my ignorance much appreciated!
The problem with that was that our Officer Cadets were still to be saluted because their was no such thing.
Why not just accept that Pilot Officer is a training rank and go back to just wearing Pilot Officer on appointment?
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No such thing where?
I’ve been an officer cadet twice - on the UAS and during IOT.
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I cannot “confirm” but there are plenty of good reasons why not starting at Sgt makes life difficult - and is best answered by asking “why should uniform ranks start below Sgt?”
Sgt is the lowest rank in the RAFAC for CFAVs
CIs moving into NCO uniform are “demoted” to the JR mess and with it only get JR privileges (read restrictions) - these can include no access to courses or opportunities as these are limited to SNCO ranks and above (shooting is an example of this, a Cpl cannot be an RCO - so a CI who may have been an effective RCO for 10 years now has to wait for promotion to Sgt before they can continue their skill).
It also complicates elements if using Station messes, as staff can now be split three ways instead of two - with the most junior of Staff likely to be left on their own versus the rest of the Staff team who are SNCOs or Officers.
The rank of Sgt is a Senior rank and thus taken “seriously” when putting in requests. OASC candidates which are not officers are Sgts due to the role and responsibility they have - they have the rank (authority) to ask people for things and be taken seriously.
A CFAV who is at SAC rank is less likely to be taken seriously than a Sgt by the regulars when requesting accommodation, weapons, kit or other facilities etc.
there is no benefit in starting at Cpl (or below) as the NCO rank structure has no rank = role. A Sgt on one unit could be doing the same role as a WO on the neighbouring Sqn. the suggestion in having Cpl (or lower) only serves to identify the CFAV as “inexperienced”
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That would indeed be a viable option.
Although if the point is that you need to go through some credibility training before walking around indistinguishable from an officer, you should either be identifiable as such, or if the system can’t handle creating a new position properly, without causing extra confusion, you should remain in civilian clothing until you’re trained.
Being an “AC” or whatever they’re called these days until you’re a trained sgt or plt off would be a way to work around it.
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Yes they can.
That was the thing, VR(T) never had Officer Cadets so when we had them they were “acting down” as such they still wore pins, didn’t wear hat bands and were entitled to be saluted.
Basically the same as now, but still unnecessary.
Personally I think what we have is a solution on search of a problem.
There was no widespread issue with people who hadn’t been to ATF being imbeciles. Let’s be honest what do you learn on your initial course that really makes a difference to what is expected of you walking round a camp in uniform?
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All interesting points.
On the experience point, was this considered when demoting CFAV officers to fg off whenever they’re no longer doing a senior role?
Apologies that I’m now straying off topic. Won’t ask a follow-up!
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Couldn’t speak to that, but I had indeed assumed the answer would be “nothing”.
Makes you wonder if the wavy navy rank slides have a good point in making it incredibly clear that the CFAV is not of the same world.
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Which is where we could’ve kept wearing our VR(T) pins even after the change to the commission.
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Agreed with the above, for me the only time I could think of when a Cpl rank could be beneficial is for when a Staff Cadet at Cadet Sgt or above goes straight into uniform and rather than going to the old fashioned “Adult Sgt” could fill the training role of “Adult Cpl” until they reach a set number of years service. On camps it could be beneficial to have a staff member that is in uniform in the JRMs