Despite my previous comments about you and your posts, I have to agree wholeheartedly with you on this one.
When I did my AEF back in the days of the Chipmunk, we weren’t there to learn how to fly, we were there to gain flying experience. Anything else during the flight was a bonus.
Some of the pilots I flew with had experience of flying in wars and they - like us - weren’t concerned about any sort of syllabus (not that one existed then). They - and us - just wanted to do loops and barrel-rolls and stall-turns. Quite often, pilots used to ask if we wanted to take control and then talked us through how to bank the aircraft into a turn and how to fly straight and level. That to me, was what AEF was all about, not this pile of poo PTS flying syllabus we have today.
I had a PTT session a few years back where I got a snot o’gram on Monday for not showing up, I pointed out to the originator that he hadn’t told us about the allocation, he apologised and went away. I assume that would be put down as an allocation failure.
Your end paragraph there summarises perfectly what AEF should be and how it was for me as a cadet too.
Get up in the air. Have a go at flying straight and level. Have a go and doing some turning. Then if you’re feeling happy sit back while the pilot does some aeros for you to enjoy! That an experience flight.
If you’re lucky enough to get multiple experience flights during your time as a cadet as I was, then you can ask the pilot if you can ‘learn’ how to do loop-the-loops and they will let you have a go…
I don’t think cadets ever think they are going to be taught how to fly, but we now seem to have moved to world where it’s all about have or did you learn something, having ‘lessons’ mapped out and people worried about progression… AEF and AEG come to that should be all about the wow factor, that I remember like @anon72613902 of a number of flights in Chipmunks. Even thought I’d dome some sort of aerobatics in every flight byy the time I aged out it was still a thrill.
I recall one mum coming to see me after an AEF detail and asking if her son had actually done aerobatics and taken control. He’d been telling his family and mates since he’d got home on Saturday and she wanted to make sure it was right. This is what we should be doing or aiming for every single time.
I’ve had this - a cadet on his AEF, having never flown before at all in anything, and nobody at home believing that on his first ever flight he was happy to go upside down.
But he certainly did!
It’s nice to have that conversation at the gate with mum and dad who were amazed.
And in fairness they should be - how many kids get to go do aeros!?
I think we have a fantastic provision, and a fantastic ability to offer cadets this amazing AEF/VGS experience - it’s just about making the absolute most of it.
HQAC, through the PTS system, are obsessed about achievement. There’s no notion of doing something for the enjoyment of it.
Reminds me of a quote from top gear (of all places);
“I asked him why it was so complicated to take the traction control off, he said ‘why would you want to do that?’. I said ‘because it would be fun’… And you could see him think ‘hmm, fun. I must look that up’…”
That may change now that they have a new RAvnO although I doubt their predecessor will allow it as they are now the Region Senior Staff Officer, so still quite close to that level.
Prior to their move to LASER that were my Wing FloGlo and did an excellent job of allocations, sent out by email a quarter at a time and followed up with Outlook Meeting Invites to all sqn accounts to act as a reminder, no excuse to say you didn’t realise! I’m pleased to say I think this ethos has been retained be out current AvnO as since 2018 we’ve had a good process in place and seem to avoid the issues others have.
I think we can all agree that we’d like more Flying/Gliding for cadets and I include AEF & VGS staff in the all, but there just isn’t the budget for it.
I think people are frustrated more with the process rather than experience and are venting at @Jed and @Drainingtheswamp as people linked to AEF/VGS and that’s easy to do behind a keyboard, I doubt we’d say the same when visiting there unit after they have flown the cadets.
Absolutely. My two highlights of 6AEF at Abingdon were 1: actually putting the aircraft into a loop and 2: landing the Chipmunk. I daresay, though, I doubt the pilots hands were far away from the stick…
One AEF pilot I saw in his No.1’s on the annual Wg Parade (remember those), wore the ribbon of the Air Crew Europe Star and most of us know what THAT signifies.
And that’s where’s lot of the challenge from the Squadron Staff comes from, since from where we sit the budget that is being spent by 2FTS has been seriously mismanaged, a huge dump truck full of money being urinated up the wall with no benefit for our Cadets.
But this is where we need the RAF at 2* and higher, (not 2FTS, 6FTS or HQAC come to that telling us this and that) to say what they are actually prepared and willing to support wrt to Air Cadet flying and make it happen.
If they aren’t willing or can’t then that’s a whole new discussion.
So a release from the AFB saying this what will happen, would resolve this situation.
Air Cadets without sustainable and accessible air opportunities is just Cadets.
My last visit to Syerston was two and a half years ago. I escorted our total allocation of cadets, which was 2. When we got there we were joined by 4 other cadets from different squadrons. 6 cadets in total for a whole day of gliding, and that was the capacity of the VGS.
The cadets spent the morning doing the groundschool and PTT’s, of which, only 2 out of the 6 were working/booted up.
We had our lunches and I had mine in the staff room with 12 members of the VGS staff.
In the afternoon, 2 of the cadets got 3 flights, the other 4 got 2 flights. A grand total of 14 cadet flights across 2 gliders.
The cadets got to fly so they were happy, but what struck me the most, was the absolute waste of the PTT’s. 6 sorties in the morning and turned off in the afternoon.
If the spare staff in that day, had got all 6 up and running for the whole day, think of the number of cadets they could have pushed through the groundschool needed for a set of wings. I’ve got 25 cadets in the squadron with the required AEF flight for blue wings, but none can be issued beacuse we haven’t been allocated any slots at a VGS/AGS since.
I remember getting through a number of loops, barrel rolls, and a half cuban during my AEF visits if not one or two more. I also managed straight and level, power control, turns with correct rudder use, and elevator trim (at least, it’s a little fuzzy). I may be misremembering, but I’m convinced I was shown a stall turn
I also got through my GICs, but that was in the Vigi so a bit less interesting.
Those “sorties” if done by the book sound boring (relative to the context of flying) so I’m glad they’re ignored. The sensation of G is the thing that will captivate most and make them want to learn more.
Better use of ground assets to do the boring bits, get some fun time in the sky. You could run a detailed PTS on the ground and if that gets completed then take those skills into the sky for the next actual flight. Make it worth turning up in the rain, too, if that was still quality training (beyond what a knowledgeable layperson can offer on an average sqn sim) that actually led to something better.
I understand the desire to “teach”, but it’s not “effects of controls” that motivates cadets to go to AEF or even take things further than that.
What spare staff running 6 PTT all day would have left 6 to run the airfield. Where they all instructors I expect not, ATP was no doubt not the only task that day
That is interesting.
With around 40-45k Cadets the max capacity is only capable of flying 50% of the Cadet population before taking into account any reason for no flying
Looking at the slides offered 378 slots (1.9%) were “lost opportunities” disappointing yes but hardly groundbreaking figures which explains CFAV attitudes and the (lack of) experience cadets get.
Based on 15-20k slots we should see somewhere between a third and half of the Cadet population getting places allocated each year yet based on the numbers shared above an " average" Squadron of 40 barely gets 10 successful slots in two-three years…
There must be a significantly higher number than 378 lost opportunities through fault not of the Squadron/Cadet/CFAV to account for this level of delivery…otherwise we should all be regularly getting 10+ slots a year with 8+ of those being successful
For what its worth, sure Flying and Gliding will never be what it was for me as a Cadet from 99 to 05, but at least we still have it.
Yes there have been rough years, and we still have much to iron out, and much to improve. I won’t list it here as it has already been covered in this thread.
But I feel we do need to be honest with ourselves. I would hate to see Flying and Gliding lost to the organisation, but I think we have to ask tough questions and now. If it is dieing off, then time we killed it off. Better we move forward with clear direction as to what we are and who we are, rather than trying to cling on to the old ways, basically deceiving people and thereby in the process stopping us offering other things to our young people.
I will now retreat to a safe distance and await the onslaught for the above!
Those 15000 are sorties flown not slots. If the allocations across the RAFAC were being done evenly, you should see 50% of your Sqn size offered a slot each year.
@Drainingtheswamp, you seem to be quoting info and facts but you only get to see it from your side of the fence.
50% of the sqn strength flying a year?
We were about 8 to 12 cadets per year going to AEF. If you were the morning slot 6 cadets and then in the afternoon 4 cadets. About 25%.
No shows,
I was one of those COs who was tarnished with a no show, but when you get an email at 11pm on the Monday saying you are flying this weekend and your return must be in on Wednesday noon for getting through security it doesn’t exactly leave you much time to get cadets and forms filled out…
Also week day flying, I couldn’t fill any slots during the week with cadets as I couldn’t get time off and neither could my staff to fulfil the 2 staff criteria yet we were constantly marked as unwilling to take cadets flying, which isn’t the case it’s not being unwilling it’s about being physically able two very different things.
As for gliding…
I remember taking a minibus full of cadets GIC flying and they loved it. Last time our sqn went it was 2 cadets and it was very much hurry up and wait, there was no fun to be had it seemed to of been misplaced.
Whilst some of what you say is fact other things are being manipulated to make it seem the CFAVs are at fault where in fact I believe it’s everyone as we seem to of went from being 1 team to being a client and customer mentality.
