Hi all,
Really new here does anyone know if a cadet flight sergeant who has been on the cadet drill course teach basic weapons drill on the sqn using wooden rifles.
Thanks
I would say not to be honest, but i would suggest this is more of a common sense rule than a written one.
2 Likes
No. Any arms drill can only be taught by a qualified SSDIC (Arms) Instructor irrespective of whether itâs drill purpose rifles or wooden rifles. This should have been covered on the cadet flight sergeants CDC.
2 Likes
TBH I doubt it as you wouldnât really have had the experience etc doing arms drill regardless of the response from the âwe want to justify why we are here brigadeâ about doing a course.
1 Like
There was an order that was issued stating the use of wooden weapons was forbidden in the ACO.
1 Like
What is a CDC? Too many TLAs
Cadet Drill Course. The rest of this text is merely to satisfy the minimum 20 character post.
1 Like
When?
The CoS letter which was promulgated at the introduction of the DI (Arms) courses quite happily permits the use of L98 or âReplica weaponsâ for training.
But to back up the answers to the original question, No. A Cadet FS may not teach arms drill.
That same policy letter states that arms drill may only be taught by DI (Arms) instructors (irritatingly being referred to as WDIs by some involved with the D&C Camp these days) or by regular, serving DIs. That is regardless of the training aid used.
I would need to trawl through this years emails but we got an order issued that coincided with cadet direct Advertising wooden replica weapons for training. It told us not to purchase them and that the corps had a ban on using wooden weapons for any training drill or skill at arms.
I recall Cadet Direct putting those out. It was only a few months ago I think.
I certainly donât recall us being told anything quite like you were. I do seem to recall our guys being told not to purchase them because theyâre a complete waste of money and have no training value whatsoever (being nothing more than thin cut-outs) but anything which said that the Corps has an outright ban on wooden weapons in general might likely be locally made-up.
Certainly they have no SAA value at all; but decent replica rifles could be useful for arms drill training.
This is one way around it wooden broomsticks 
You think thatâs funny!!!
Need to get you a yellow card if Cranwell see that it will be the new replacement for the No8!!! 
Indeed. We have a similar ban in the ACF (which does definitely come from the top). It is sad that they donât see the benefit, especially at units with few or no DPs with which to practice rifle drill with. For under ÂŁ40, a cheap BB L85 can be bought, have its BB parts removed and replaced with lead weights. This can give you a drill rifle at around 75% the weight of a normal one, which is ideal for rifle drill training. The cheap L85s come brightly coloured so do not fall foul of the VCRA, and do not require special cabinets to lock them away in. I have tried to feed this back up the chain but no idea how far it went!
1 Like
AP818 Part 1 - Chapter 1: Principles
3c. When demonstrating, do so accurately and if the movement is with a rifle, use a rifle and nothing else.
Okay many Squadrons donât get the luxury of DP rifles to hand but there it is anyway.
The unfortunate thing is rules are made on high with no consideration of the practicalities for the ATC and have been for some time. God forbid someone actually considers what the ramifications might be for 123 (Anytown) Sqn.
You will probably find the 818 quote lifted direct from the RAFâs version (put straight into ours), who should have no trouble whatsoever getting their hands on weapons DP or not. I also imagine the ATC SNCO DI mob have had a hand in it as well.
The ban on these âmodelâ weapons is no doubt linked to perceived public prissiness about youngsters with âgunsâ. When common sense was king and the world was run by sane people we did lots of drill with rifles in all manner of places. I donât ever remember comments along the lines of what are those kids doing with those out and about, in fact we got lots of positive comments and donations for the sqn from places we did displays for.
These wooden rifles would probably be lighter than the real thing and in a Corps with more younger and diminuitive cadets, anything that can improve âaccessâ to activities should only be seen as a positive and not just get a snotty rebuttal. There are generations of cadets who will never experience the satisfaction of doing rifle drill just because of the times in which we live and the closed minded attitude towards things in the Corps. Having watched drill displays for many years, Iâve always thought the old âfull sizeâ weapons, ably demonstrated when you watch the Americans at the Edinburgh Tattoo, look much better than the small rifles.
It is ironic that no one says flying can only be done in aircraft, given the push towards using simulators. On this basis I would have thought using something like these for rifle drill would be the order of the day and not require WHTs to do arms drill.
1 Like
The âATC mobâ havenât had a hand in anything. Nothing has been lifted from the RAF version and put into ours⌠There is no âATC Versionâ; we use the same AP.
I canât speak for those wings whoâve invented their own ban but as far as the Corps is concerned âreplica weaponsâ can be used.
The issue with the âwooden riflesâ mentioned is that they are rubbish! Nothing more than flat 3/4" MDF cutouts with engraved detailing. They provide almost no practical use whatsoever (despite what the advertisement might say), and are simply intended to coax money out of clueless individuals.
They are no use for Skill at Arms training and they are no use for rifle drill training. There is absolutely no point in training cadets to attempt to perform drill with lightweight cutouts and then to expect them to be able to pick up a real rifle - 3 dimensional and full weight - and do the same.
I hope that the marvellous continuity drill display at the 75th bash at Cranwell will rejuvenate interest in arms drill for parades, etc.
That would be brilliant as this is probably the pinnacle imo for cadet drill, however they will, due to the current (narrow minded) policies and availability for arms drill instruction and rifles, remain solely in the domain of the large events like the one last weekend. The irony is that a large percentage of those doing it last week will never ever do it again, mostly because they wonât have a current WHT, which is massively disappointing. I wonder how many had WHTs or had done the instruction on the weapon before they got together? I bet however they werenât unable to get enough WI and WHTers to get it done, unlike the local experience. There are so few opportunities for cadets to get trained on the L98 it would be impossible for a very, very large percentage of sqns to have enough cadets, then there is having the rifles available and an SNCO who has done the appropriate course.
The days when sqns did the same routine and then occasionally would come together for a larger event are long gone and will never return. I remember as a cadet having continuity arms drill competitions, ones under orders and armed banner escorts and âsleeping sentryâ at Remembrance Parades were commonplace.
Iâve demonstrated the principles of rifle drill using pikes (the basic movements for standard drill are the same as what I remember for arms drill) and a cut down broom handle. It wouldnât be too difficult to put something together using broom handles. Not too sure how that would go down.
it is hard copy only so canât share a link for instant confirmation but:
as of February this year we received a memo following the availability of the wooden cutouts which highlight
[quote]Chapter 1 para 4d.
d. Replica Weapons. Other than MOD issued Drill Purpose (DP) rifles, the use of privately acquired replica weapons for training or ceremonial drill purposes is not approved by HQ AC. Dissimilar types of unauthorised Replica weapons have no realistic training value and therefore are not to be held by ATC Units or stored in armament storage facilities.
Chapter 6 para 21
Use of Replica Weapons
21. Privately purchased Replica weapons are not categorised as NSW, therefore, the use of privately acquired replica weapons for training or ceremonial drill purposes is not approved by HQ AC. Dissimilar types of unauthorised Replica weapons have no realistic training value and are not to be held by ATC Units or stored in Unit armouries or arms chest.
[/quote]
i await someone to offer differently or suggest checking the hard copies of ACP26 to confirmâŚ
ACP 26 has always been against replica weapons and has prohibited their storage in Sqn armouries.
The covering letter and policy notes that were issued with the introduction of the SSDIC (Arms) course superseded that.
Though, they were slightly ambiguous.
The encouragement during the course was very much not to attempt to use airsoft or other toys for Rifle Drill.
The solid training rifles once made by Manroy Engineering that are kicking around in some places though are perfectly suitable for training, having been designed specifically for the purpose and no other, and are most definitely âreplica weaponsâ.
These are the wooden things being discussed⌠Clearly no use to man nor beast!
1 Like