Why is it people get away with murder when others get [told off] at every step

Adult Staff The Staff Mess
21

I sincerely hope that if your lives change or take a sharp turn and the ATC becomes a distraction, you have a sqn cdr who has a flexible approach. As a sqn cdr you are expected to manage the squadron and deal with things and in my book use the rules to guide you as to how to deal with things. If you apply them rigidly you will end up doing nothing but dealing with problems and very quickly lose staff.

As for sqn cdrs they are managers, if it stops in your absence then it’s pretty poor. When any of our SLT are off at work, things seem to run a lot more smoothly.

22

[quote=“glass half empty 2” post=17097]I sincerely hope that if your lives change or take a sharp turn and the ATC becomes a distraction, you have a sqn cdr who has a flexible approach. As a sqn cdr you are expected to manage the squadron and deal with things and in my book use the rules to guide you as to how to deal with things. If you apply them rigidly you will end up doing nothing but dealing with problems and very quickly lose staff.

As for sqn cdrs they are managers, if it stops in your absence then it’s pretty poor. When any of our SLT are off at work, things seem to run a lot more smoothly.[/quote]

I do. But she would ensure that her flexible approach was in line with the rules. She can authorise me for 3 months leave of absence, or she can transfer me to the NEP. What she can’t do is simply let me not bother. Because one of her roles is to ensure that her staff are doing the minimum hours we all voluntarily agreed to do.

By virtue of the fact that I have voluntarily agreed to give 12 hours a month to the ATC that time is no longer my ‘free time’ it is the ATC’s time. When Racing Stick volunteered to join the Guards (and I say volunteered as he sure as hell wasn’t conscripted) he couldn’t have simply decided one day. ‘I’m not giving up my free time to stand outside Buck House today, she can stuff it.’

23

[quote=“Baldrick” post=17098][quote=“glass half empty 2” post=17097]I sincerely hope that if your lives change or take a sharp turn and the ATC becomes a distraction, you have a sqn cdr who has a flexible approach. As a sqn cdr you are expected to manage the squadron and deal with things and in my book use the rules to guide you as to how to deal with things. If you apply them rigidly you will end up doing nothing but dealing with problems and very quickly lose staff.

As for sqn cdrs they are managers, if it stops in your absence then it’s pretty poor. When any of our SLT are off at work, things seem to run a lot more smoothly.[/quote]

I do. But she would ensure that her flexible approach was in line with the rules. She can authorise me for 3 months leave of absence, or she can transfer me to the NEP. What she can’t do is simply let me not bother. Because one of her roles is to ensure that her staff are doing the minimum hours we all voluntarily agreed to do.

By virtue of the fact that I have voluntarily agreed to give 12 hours a month to the ATC that time is no longer my ‘free time’ it is the ATC’s time. When Racing Stick volunteered to join the Guards (and I say volunteered as he sure as hell wasn’t conscripted) he couldn’t have simply decided one day. ‘I’m not giving up my free time to stand outside Buck House today, she can stuff it.’[/quote]

ATC service and HM Forces service cant really be compared to each other… He wouldnt be giving up his free time to stand outside “Buck House” that was his job and what he was paid to do. As pepole keep saying on here the ATC is a hobby some things in life take priority like jobs and family ect.

24

Uniformed, youth organisation to foster the spirit of Adventure in the young.

Not the hitler youth.
Not the Last line of defence.
Not a private miniature AirForce.

And for those who couldn’t grasp my quit bout blind obedience of the rules, I shall put it as such;

The new PCS has Velcro in the sleeves for padding, now it states in the regulations that any modification to any uniform counts as vandalism against the Queens property.
Yet the Velcro doesnt allow you to fold the sleeves properly, smartly and uniformly, unless you cut the Velcro out… Allowing you to fold the sleeves smartly and correctly…

25

I didn’t say the nature of the service is the same. But the nature of the agreement is. Why is the act of someone ‘volunteering’ to join the regulars and sign on for 5 years different from someone ‘volunteering’ to join the RAFVR(T) or ATC and sign on for 12 hours a month. It isn’t. in both cases the person has agreed voluntraily to give up their time, if they don’t then provide that time then you face consequences.

A lot of people on here seem to think that ‘volunteering’ means you can choose when and not to do it. On the whole we can, but only as long as we put in 12 hours MINIMUM.

26

Some individuals as per the OP, get a very serious sense of being wronged and normally over things that don’t really matter and or we don’t know the full story, even here the OP hasn’t bothered to come back and put more meat on the bones.

As a sqn cdr you could quite easily run around pointing at the rules and regs for every single thing, but all you would end up with is a headache and maybe ulcers and few or no staff, for something you don’t get paid to do. You need a sense of proportion. When you look at the tone of some posts, you can get a very good sense of why we are lacking uniformed staff in the organisation, as it doesn’t paint a good picture. If someone said to me, I’m going sack you from the ATC or want you to resign your commission for say not attending, would I feel that I’m the loser, not really.

27

12 hours a month for uniformed staff is nothing really is it. Forget parade nights, you could do 1 day a month (sport, AT, shooting etc etc etc) and still fulfill this criteria.

There is wriggle room built into the system if something comes up - leave of absence can be granted, or for longer terms there’s NEP. For those that excaust both of these or know they will not be able to come back for a minimum of 12 hours a month thereafter, then they can drop the uniform and contribute as a CI.

No one is saying that staff should be binned for not doing 12 hours, but frankly what is the point in having an Officer or NCO who is never about and now effectively a uniform hanger?

If they continue to make a valuable contribution despite not doing 12 hours a month (frankly I cant think of many circumstances but will throw it out there) then the chain of command could exercise some discretion, or they can become a CI.

28

I didn’t say the nature of the service is the same. But the nature of the agreement is. Why is the act of someone ‘volunteering’ to join the regulars and sign on for 5 years different from someone ‘volunteering’ to join the RAFVR(T) or ATC and sign on for 12 hours a month. It isn’t. in both cases the person has agreed voluntraily to give up their time, if they don’t then provide that time then you face consequences.

A lot of people on here seem to think that ‘volunteering’ means you can choose when and not to do it. On the whole we can, but only as long as we put in 12 hours MINIMUM.[/quote]#

I see “Volunteering” as doing something you dont get paid to do. I kept asking about a course I wanted to go on (asking when the next one would be ect) I just found out at the weekend that its in 3 weeks time I said I couldnt go on it as not enough notice for work ect I then got a mouth full of the boss because I had been asking about it for months.

My point being the ACO go off on one if we dont give enough notice but they NEVER give enough noitce.

29

I do love this euphemism, why not say what it is?

However not engaging in sexual relationships with cadets in this age range is not a rule per se, it’s just something that morally and ethically (not legally as the age of consent is 16) we’re not expected to do given we are in a ‘position of trust’. On that point it even means cadets who are over 18.

[/quote]

What euphemism? I used ‘sleeping with’ because it’s a universally understood polite term. I could have been more colourful, but it didn’t seem appropriate, especially given that I was actually taking the opportunity to rib the Rear Admiral in a tongue in cheek way, rather than trying to make a sensible point.

And it is an ATC rule. Whether it’s moral or immoral is up for debate and dependant on circumstances. It’s certainly got no legal backing, as Perry and Baldrick were able to point out in another thread.

Anyway, like I said, I wasn’t trying to make a serious point.

30

[/quote]

We don’t volunteer. We serve, and we have conditions of service. If you breach them you can be chucked out. It’s pretty simple.

And yes, if I was a Squadron Commander and one of my staff displayed the same attitude to their minimum service as you clearly do I’d quite happily let them go.[/quote]

CFAS - Cadet Forces Adult Server?
Don’t talk rubbish!
If you have served (properly), then really you should know a lot better. Cadets is not mission critical. We do it because we love what we do. We do it because we want to offer the Cadets something. Sometimes though, other things crop up. Things outside our control. Why go through all the rigmarole of leave, NEP, etc, if it is something that can be sorted within the admin of your Sqn? Someone mentioned about putting things into proportion, I think they have a point…

31

Lets break this down into small sentences so you can understand.

Where is the cut off?
What happens when you have 5 adult staff on the books
But none of them turn up
Including the OC
And someone has a problem which means they need some time off
Who do they speak to?
What happens when wing won’t give you more staff as you have five on the books
Where is the cut off?

Sorting it “within” the squadron effectively means you are going outside of the established processes and that means your qualities as an officer, to uphold those orders issued by your senior officers, are reduced. (oops, big sentence). Why should anyone of your staff follow the rules if you can’t?

32

What about compassion for people and respect for people? These are what I would call key qualities. The staff on my sqn feel comfortable to talk to me about things knowing that unless they have done something drastic, I won’t quote chapter and verse. To do the latter would IMO make me unapproachable and give me a headache.

WRT following orders et al, I bet there are many considered to be among the greats in history who didn’t do everything they were told / ordered to do. Anyone driving a car excess of the indicated speed limit is in effect not following an order, but I bet we’ve all done it.

There seems to be a mindset among some posters here for staff in the ATC to be automatons, programmed to do things and not deviating. What a dull, dull world.

In this day and age most communication is done over the phone, text or email, so someone coming to the sqn to see someone and in the highly unlikely situation not finding anyone (unless it was a standown), has plenty of options.

33

Not at all, and 12 hours a month is hardly arduous!

And if people do have personal issues to deal with then they can be taken into account, either at squadron level or above, or more likely both. I doubt anyone would have to revert to CI status after just a month of doing less than 12 hours, and frankly, I suspect it would take at least 2-3 months for anyone to pick it up and think about dealing with it.

No one is suggesting ATC staff are automatons, and god knows we deal with enough excrement as it is, but people go into uniform knowing the obligation to do a minimum of 12 hours, and the possible outcome if they do not. I see it as akin to a contract (which is effectively which it is) and if you do not comply with the terms there are potential consequences.

34

I would have thought PM given your profession you would be more than aware of the vagaries of the application of rules or the law through your dealings with the courts. Given that solicitors etc will advocate and mitigate for clients, depending on which side they are playing that week, ie defence or prosecution, the rules/laws of the land are open territory for interpretation, as the same offence will have different outcomes for each offender.

I’ve got mates who work for the Police and Probation and they have stopped being amazed how a different bench in the Magistrates will find for a case and in Crown how the sentence depends on who’s presiding. My mate in Probation has said that the solicitors horse trade between the cases, so the work that he and his colleagues have do can be pointless to either secure or a conviction or not. As such you can have a rule or law and each person will interpret or use it differently.

As you say you won’t probably pick up on the fact they’ve not been down for a couple months anyway and then probably another couple of weeks before you get on top of it.

I’ve worked and had staff who’ve worked shifts and these are not conducive to doing our hobby as much as our rules may dictate and if your real life ‘gets in the way’ you may not get down for several weeks. My mates in the Police do nights, lates and “earlies”, those I know in the Corps may only get to their squadrons with any certainty one week in three (many of these are or have been sqn cdrs and WSOs), yet in spite of this the ATC seems to like having Policemen/women as uniformed staff. I’ve known a few Sqn Cdrs who run their own business or are have senior positions at work, again professionals that the Corps likes to attract, but the very nature of their work, means they may not get down every night. If you were the sqn cdr with people like this would you seriously be saying sorry you’ll have to consider your status, unlikely.

I have to admit if I couldn’t miss parade nights because the other staff might not be able to cope, I’d pack it in now. Then what about the stories you hear about Flt Lts overseeing 2 or more sqns with a SNCO doing the day to day running. What happens if the peripatetic CO doesn’t get round to their charges as they are busy with real life, do they get asked to consider their position, I very, very much doubt that would happen.

Ideally all uniformed staff should be at their sqn every parade night and be available every weekend, and if they fail to achieve 12 hours a month, prostrate themselves and admit they can’t do it and resign their status but in lieu of this uptopia we have to live with what really happens and if we can’t live with it maybe we should be the ones who leave.

35

[quote=“glass half empty 2” post=17178]I would have thought PM given your profession you would be more than aware of the vagaries of the application of rules or the law through your dealings with the courts. Given that solicitors etc will advocate and mitigate for clients, depending on which side they are playing that week, ie defence or prosecution, the rules/laws of the land are open territory for interpretation, as the same offence will have different outcomes for each offender.

I’ve got mates who work for the Police and Probation and they have stopped being amazed how a different bench in the Magistrates will find for a case and in Crown how the sentence depends on who’s presiding. My mate in Probation has said that the solicitors horse trade between the cases, so the work that he and his colleagues have do can be pointless to either secure or a conviction or not. As such you can have a rule or law and each person will interpret or use it differently.

As you say you won’t probably pick up on the fact they’ve not been down for a couple months anyway and then probably another couple of weeks before you get on top of it.

I’ve worked and had staff who’ve worked shifts and these are not conducive to doing our hobby as much as our rules may dictate and if your real life ‘gets in the way’ you may not get down for several weeks. My mates in the Police do nights, lates and “earlies”, those I know in the Corps may only get to their squadrons with any certainty one week in three (many of these are or have been sqn cdrs and WSOs), yet in spite of this the ATC seems to like having Policemen/women as uniformed staff. I’ve known a few Sqn Cdrs who run their own business or are have senior positions at work, again professionals that the Corps likes to attract, but the very nature of their work, means they may not get down every night. If you were the sqn cdr with people like this would you seriously be saying sorry you’ll have to consider your status, unlikely.

I have to admit if I couldn’t miss parade nights because the other staff might not be able to cope, I’d pack it in now. Then what about the stories you hear about Flt Lts overseeing 2 or more sqns with a SNCO doing the day to day running. What happens if the peripatetic CO doesn’t get round to their charges as they are busy with real life, do they get asked to consider their position, I very, very much doubt that would happen.

Ideally all uniformed staff should be at their sqn every parade night and be available every weekend, and if they fail to achieve 12 hours a month, prostrate themselves and admit they can’t do it and resign their status but in lieu of this uptopia we have to live with what really happens and if we can’t live with it maybe we should be the ones who leave.[/quote]

I think you’ve worked yourself up into an unrealistic frenzy here. In the legal examples you give all the mitigation, advocacy and persuasion is still done within the rules. The relevant laws give room for things to be argued, or the wording of the law itself is ambiguous so needs to be defined.

In our case, the contract is pretty clear. 12 hours a month. There’s not a lot of arguing there. If you feel you can’t meet that the mitigation (again within the rules) is to ask for a leave of absence, (up to three months) then, if all else fails go NEP.

What you’re advocating is a system whereby staff can just say ‘stuff it’. Which is completely unworkable.

But you are massively overstating the scale of the problem. In the vast majority of the examples of working around life which you give, how many of your staff who need this working around fail to do 12 hours? I would imagine not many. 12 hours a month is such a basic minimum standard that I can’t see how on earth you can defend someone who fails to meet it. It takes a massive amount of personal disorganisation and unreliability to not make 12 hours that the staff member involved would really need to rethink their position completely.

36

Why during boards is the question “are you able to commit to regular attendance” (referring no doubt to 12 hours) asked and even if someone says no due to work, are they still taken on? If the rules were as rigid as people seem to think they are or should be, none of these would have made it through. In my experience this would mean several successful sqn cdrs and WSO.

I suppose it depends what the deciding criteria are for appointing people as it seems the 12 hours isn’t at the top of the list. On all the narratives I’ve written I’m absolutely upfront about their committment and thus far this hasn’t affected them being appointed even where I state their work prevents regular attendance, as none, so far, have not been appointed.

But I’m still intrigued as to the OPs situation.

37

Not anymore will they get away with that. It just means your OC wing is slack.

38

This has been the case for at least 4 Wg Cdrs that I’ve known in my adult time in the Corps, so goes back many a moon and I doubt very much that this is not the experience across the country.

39

How is it calculated? Is it an average on a monthly basis, or can it be spread across a year. Does 1 week on camp = 14 months of attendance??

I’m sure if any CFAV can show they do more than 144hrs a year they can justify it, afterall, our 28 days is spread across a year…

40

Hmm 12 hrs a month.I would think every one of us on this forum (especially those who run sqns) do a lot more than 12 hrs a month.With the advent of Bader some years ago and the vast advance in communication technology is there ever a time when your really off duty.If your not fielding calls from staff its calls from Wing or dealing with the never ending deluge of e mails and paperwork.In the last year ive been called by a staff member whilst I was halfway up a mountain road on Capri and called by my Wing Hq as I was transitting through Heathrow.
Then there are the flying trips to AEF ,trips to parent units to get clothing for my cadets and the endless planning.
The crucial thing is I still enjoy it and im in my mid 50s…I also work shifts and hold down a full time job.