Honestly, I thought this after the last round 3 weeks ago, but don’t think I got around to saying anything.
After everything settled down I went back and read through all of @Hercules’ responses together and in the context of everything they were replying to.
I’m seeing the same thing start to happen again where overall the principles being put forward are not as ridiculous or onerous as they are being received. It’s a credit to Hercules for trying, but the way these things are being written in official comms and the unfortunate perception and perhaps clumsy phrasing on occasion on here of the very fragmented responses, when read and responded to in isolation, is leading us down the wrong track… In my opinion.
3 weeks ago was a whirlwind, so it’s not a surprise that a few things got lost trying to bat off each individual response and criticism as it popped up.
i completely agree but…where does it end?
While gravity is a constant and predictable, we cannot predict when a drone will be used, by who or where, nor can we take that information and consider all those things to then determine the risk that drone poses (what exactly are the risks?)
If Drones are suddenly going to be falling out of the sky (there isn’t much of a risk that they will or do) then surely we need to consider every other potential threat simply because it could…right?
A driver of a delivery van falling unconscious resulting in them ploughing down pedestrians on the street during a parade
The village fete burger van gas bottles exploding
An over enthusiastic toddler waving a flag at an airshow, causing head/eye injury
Campfire going out of control of the general public group next to the DofE group i am supervising.
I am not suggesting there is no risk - but if we need to consider the very unlikely risk posed by a drone, then we need to also include those risks which have the same likelihood of occurring also, else we’re picking and choosing the risks we choose to identify at random - which is not how safety management works
to quote Donald Rumsfeld - there are known knowns and in my plan, my “known known” is that Drones do not pose a risk to me or my group sufficiently that i would include it in a RA to then also consider control measures (what should those control measures be by the way?)
if you/the PME process is asking us to “have a plan” then that suggests there are control measures available we should be considering in advance should the risk pose itself.
my concern being that we cannot know in advance if the risk will be there - we are considering a risk which might never present itself in 99 occurrences and on that 1 time it does…turned out fine without implementing any control measures (see my examples at a theme park and country park in the last month - i took no “risk avoidance” action having spotted the drone, the most I did was to point it out to the family, and secondly identify who the pilot was - neither of which are valid control measures which reduce the risk.
respectfully i disagree.
in my civilian life, and professional career I am very familiar with RAs and what should be included, and that is what is expected from the activity.
I would not consider a drowning risk in the case of a classification based radio lesson - yet it feels like this is your approach for any activity which takes place outside with public access.
on a navigation walk around the local common, i must think ahead and consider a drone being on site, despite never seeing a drone there in the 12 years I have been visiting that site, either in a CFAV or personal capacity.
ie the likelihood of the risk being present is minimum to negligible, before we even consider the severity of the risk.
as such I do not feel it is necessary to consider the risk of drones every time we step outside, be that for AT, FC, community based event, camp, airshow visit, or otherwise.
it becomes pointless if it is on there by default and is a risk which 99% of the time is never present to need control (And on the occasion it is present, doesn’t require “controlling”)
while the weather/climate is a valid control measure when outside, the risk from drones is equal to that of being bitten by a uncontrolled dog - present but so unlikely and out of my control that it is pointless considering it as a risk, and even more so suitable control measures to guard against a risk which might never present itself.
I was as i saw something and reacted. how often are we expecting Drones to fall out of the sky/pose a risk to use that they need consideration?
As I’ve said, again and again. We aren’t imposing anything that isn’t driven by data and the PME stuff is totally independent to us and they are taking a similar approach. This is driven by measured assessments of information that is not for here. I’m happy to discuss over the phone with anyone who wants to email me their number through RAFAC email. As context is important and cannot always be shared in writing.
That aside, we have a number of videos being filmed as we speak, first one is filmed and edited, which will give context, whilst also being able to see a human deliver the message. It will also explain why this has all taken so frustratingly long to achieve. However, with a team of 2!!! It takes a bit of time.
Exactly this. Thank you.
My drone just crashed into my hexi stash (sorry @Hercules it’s been one of those weeks).
If you need any assistance on media content etc going forward shout!
New to the RAFAC, you say?
Does the drone go in the cage with the cadets on the outside, or do we go in the cage with the drone on the outside? 
We all get in the cage with our drone in case a rogue 3rd party drone happens to drift by.
Leave the drone outside and sit in the cage?
I’ll make sure it’s in the ops manual. Thanks for the tip.…
Look… I’m happy to engage on the topic of drones but please try to take it seriously. This project has the ability to do a lot of good work in the organisation but it’ll not be a success if it’s taken seriously by everyone. Some perceive them as toys that don’t need regulation or oversight but that’s just not practical, legal, or achievable in a youth organisation of our size in the U.K.
I’m always happy to answer any questions as best I can and will work to make this fun aviation project as simple and accessible as possible for everyone in our community.
A lot to unpack here. Some agree with…some I definitely don’t.
The main thing is that somebody has identified this as a risk. They may have information you don’t and aren’t willing to share, for a whole manner of reasons. They’ve asked you to consider this risk as a possibility and have a plan/controls should it emerge. All prudent.
They’re not suggesting evacuation or some of the other things that have been mentioned here. Of course, that may be prudent but that’s for the assessor to decide.
Risk is best dealt with at the think ahead level, where rationally you can prepare or introduce controls. Working at the notice level, where you are mitigating as the event occurs is not how good risk management works. Working at the notice level suggests that the risk controls have failed or weren’t adequately understood, neither being good.
I think the problem you’re facing is that we can’t really take anything our headquarters does or says seriously anymore because too many edicts, bans, policies, practices have come out that aren’t explained, mitigate against a risk that we considered not present or are in otherways unworkable because no one writing it has experience of being a volunteer anywhere, let alone in this organisation.
It is commendable you coming on here to answer questions and get real feedback, and I really appreciate you taking the time to do it. But don’t blame us for not taking it seriously when that is the symptom of a wider cause which is that this organisation to many of us has become a joke and a laughing stock, especially when we see our supposedly non-aviation based sea and army cadet cousins doing the very things our organisation is so panicked about (actually flying drones).
Thanks for being so frank and open.
I obviously can’t comment on what has happened before, but I’m hoping I can change that culture in this area at least. The current ban is to allow us to build something new that we hope will benefit everyone, whilst being legal and appropriately governed. This “pause” isn’t our default position and will change over the coming months in a measured way to make flying drones easier and easier.
If I’m being honest, it’s some of the feedback from engaged CFAVs that has led to some further changes that we are incorporating now, which has delayed or even further. However, those changes are worth the delay to ensure we get it as right as we possibly can from the outset. Not something that doesn’t really work and is rushed.
Personally, I’ve volunteered for all of my adult life and have led some of the largest organisations (as a volunteer) through some significant change management initiatives that have revolutionised volunteering in those spheres. I totally understand the frustration and I can see where improvements can be easily made. However, there needs to be a culture and leader that is open to that change and perhaps that what RAFAC needs in this new opportunity to appoint a Comdt, some new thinking. Volunteers should be the most valued asset in the organisation and I personally believe that isn’t the case currently. But perhaps that’s a bit off topic for this thread.
In short, I get it. But a little change in one area can often become contagious.
I have spoken to someone within my local constabulary, whilst wearing another hat, and the inclusion of these and similar items in PME and other regulated events makes sense from a security perspective. I won’t put details here but if you’re keen to know drop me a PM.
I would like to say “Thank you” to @Hercules for doing his bit to try and put foward what is actually going on and why. As many have said, we here are so used to things being cancelled/paused with no real context, which is why we’re all so sceptical.
@Hercules has done their best to give us, in the trenches, some kind of context into this thorny topic and, while we may question/challenge/object, at the end of the day we are, believe it or not, interested in what’s happening and, more importantly, waiting for the green light.
The new Syllabus for RPAS is coming for next year/ Q4 2024. They are shooting promotional videos and photos this coming month I am involved as one of the cadets being interviewed and demonstrating the drones. I don’t see why I shouldn’t tell you. Typical RAFAC has meant the shooting session has been delayed as the ‘Big Brass’ have been unavailable.
this sounds positive…it will not just be an announcement but it will come with supportive and possibly instructional information too
The “Big Brass” have already done their videos.
There are to be 6 videos in total that will explain (hopefully) the way forward and why that path has been chosen. I know that this is new for RAFAC and it’s been challenging to organise. The filming this week was delayed due to a couple of issues unrelated to RAFAC.
The remaining filming will now be done at NASC.