[quote=“pEp” post=5325] and one member who hasn’t posted before has an unusual stance on this issue he would like to share…[/quote]Cool: the last time a new member broke his silence on this thread turned out pretty well 
I’m very trusting. It’s going to go one way or another…
Back again! Does anyone actually know if the change to the cadet promise is actually going to take place? Reading all the threads on the subject, I actually don’t think that removing the word ‘God’ from the promise is going to make any difference to the way I serve my Squadron and the Corps as Chaplain. What counts more is that we help the Cadets become good citizens, we nurture them and give the best advice we can to enable them to face the world with all its problems,hang ups and prejudices.
If anyone wants to look at ACP 1919 Chp 7 it lays down what the ACO wants us to do as Chaplains. At the induction of a new Chaplain he or she is asked “Will you as, as Chaplain of the Squadron seek at all times to carry out your duties faithfully, so that the Christian faith may be firmly established among its members, and a strong spirit of fellowship and service may flourish and abound?”
I know that those who are totally opposed to the whole idea of God either in life or the ACO will not be too impressed. What this then boils down to is that your arguments should not be directed to/against the individual who hold a belief but to the Air Cadet Council/ Ministry of Defence who actually appoints us to be Chaplains.
I understand that there will be a god-free promise on offer for those who choose to take it.
How it is presented or offered is likely to be grounds for another bunfight 
i dont think the appointment is the problem, more the “terms of reference” that a Padre holds i dont think anyone has said ouright Padres have no place in the ACO, they do serve a role, but that role should be free of religion/religious beliefs
…but that is not necessarily the topic being discussed here
[quote=“steve679” post=5336] i dont think anyone has said ouright Padres have no place in the ACO[/quote] I have!
I agree though that the problem as I see it is systemic and not necessarily the direct fault of any particular padre (though I’ve met a couple of fruit-loops from NI who I think shouldn’t be within 10 miles of a child or, for that matter, a military base)
[quote=“steve679” post=5336]…but that is not necessarily the topic being discussed here[/quote]Indeed - thread split?
[quote=“padre2366” post=5334]If anyone wants to look at ACP 1919 Chp 7 it lays down what the ACO wants us to do as Chaplains. At the induction of a new Chaplain he or she is asked “Will you as, as Chaplain of the Squadron seek at all times to carry out your duties faithfully, so that [strike]the Christian faith may be firmly established among its members, and[/strike] a strong spirit of fellowship and service may flourish and abound?”[/quote]Easy to fix though!
An easy fix as you say, but as we know things are easier said than done and although the subject has been discussed in this forum, things may probably be the same in years to come and our children may well be saying the same things when they are running the show! Hopefully they may have some new arguments because it looks like everything that can be said has been said, but no doubt some one out there may prove me wrong!
So is it being said that as Chaplains you (you in the general sense not necessarily personal) don’t want us to put into practise, sensibly, what we believe in and are called to do (vocationaly) yet we are expected to agree with what is being said in these threads? In a situation where things cannot be proved or disproved, my points and beliefs are as valid as yours. you cannot disprove God with either facts or evidence (in 2000 yrs no one has, not even Darwin went that far!) I cannot prove God to you conclusively because it requires a belief that is based upon faith not physical evidence! It is a discussion that cannot be concluded satisfactorily to any side.
[quote=“padre2366” post=5341]In a situation where things cannot be proved or disproved, my points and beliefs are as valid as yours.[/quote]Quite true, so why do we take a position where we bring in specialists such as yourself to espouse one particular opinion to the exclusion of others?
The underlying fault lies with a system which promotes one belief system over others and the fault exists because the manuals were written by people who wanted to promote one belief system over others.
The change to the promise we propose does not promote any particular point of view but it supports all points of view.
It does not reject the idea of gods, nor does it promote it; it remains neutral on the matter.
Why do I keep hearing an Average White Band track looking at the last few posts. :unsure:
I am finding that I am agreeing with Incubus (slighty), but Christian (this covers all demoninations)Chaplains are not brought in to the exclusion of all else. There are other faith Chaplains at loose in the ACO! I think there is a good case to answer that if a Squadron has mainly 'other faiths ’ within its Squadron make up, a suitable person should be appointed but not all the faiths have a system of ‘pastoral’ responsibility and I believe I have said before that where invitations have been given to become Chaplains, these have been declined.
One point is a vast majority of Air Cadet rules and regulations haven’t changed since Charmier retired and most of the regulations regarding the appointment and responsibilities of the chaplain is heavily slanted towards the Christian faith as when they were written, GB was taken to be a Christian country and we still had the Raj, the commonwealth and the world. Things have changed, the world has moved on and we have become more eclectic. We do need to be tolerent of all faiths and equally those with none and a chaplain should be mindful of that and act accordingly.
[quote=“padre2366” post=5346]I am finding that I am agreeing with Incubus (slighty), but Christian (this covers all demoninations)Chaplains are not brought in to the exclusion of all else. There are other faith Chaplains at loose in the ACO! I think there is a good case to answer that if a Squadron has mainly 'other faiths ’ within its Squadron make up, a suitable person should be appointed but not all the faiths have a system of ‘pastoral’ responsibility and I believe I have said before that where invitations have been given to become Chaplains, these have been declined.
One point is a vast majority of Air Cadet rules and regulations haven’t changed since Charmier retired and most of the regulations regarding the appointment and responsibilities of the chaplain is heavily slanted towards the Christian faith as when they were written, GB was taken to be a Christian country and we still had the Raj, the commonwealth and the world. Things have changed, the world has moved on and we have become more eclectic. We do need to be tolerent of all faiths and equally those with none and a chaplain should be mindful of that and act accordingly.[/quote]I’d tend to agree with that - the rules as they are written don’t really reflect the reality of 21st Century Chaplaincy and should really be re-written.
As I’ve said before, I’ve no problem with:
a) Chaplains as general staff members, with a particular focus on issues such as morality, ethics, etc
b) Provision for religion in the Corps for those cadets who are already religious and want those provisions.
As you use the words ‘we propose’ are you a menber of the Humanist movement? I had a look on thier website and while I cant’t agree with all that they say, what they do say is thought out and well tempered. I thought what they said about allowing more secular readings etc to be included in Remembrance services is certainly worth considering. I take an annual Enigma Reunion Service for Bletchley Park and am seriously considering using one of the poems.
[quote=“padre2366” post=5350]As you use the words ‘we propose’ are you a menber of the Humanist movement? [/quote]Who? Me?
I’m not a member of the humanist movement and I don’t donsider myself to be a humanist. I’m just an atheist and I don’t feel the need to belong to an organisation which claims ownership of a specific set of morals. I’m quite capable of forming my own morals without collaboration
Also, their logo is naff.
The “we” I mentioned was the collective group of people here on this forum who support the proposals made on this thread. I’m not working on behalf of a pressure group (though I am a paid up member of the National Secular Society)
Any chance of him piping up? This is going in circles again.
It’s down to him really. He sent me a PM asking to reconsider locking it, as he had a viewpoint that as yet no-one had expressed. I guess it depends how often he logs on!
That would good, especially considering Alan Turing was an Atheist.
Found this in the recent Cadet Working Group minutes. Thought ACC members would find interesting…