There’s no single crown in the RAF either but we use it in the ATC.
Things can always be made ‘to fit’ where necessary.[/quote]
Absolutely.
Further, the RAF Regt have Lance Corporal…that doesn’t exist in the wider RAF.
Tech trades have two additional ranks to move through that the rest of the RAF doesn’t have.
The precedent is already set to introduce intermediate additional ranks on a trade specific basis.
There’s no reason at all why the ATC couldn’t do the same if it chose.
There was talk at the CACWO Confrence that eventually WWO will get T&L or a GOLD Crown.
Debate…
Little things as they say.
This sounds like someone trying to buy the SNCOs off with something that has little meaning/consequence for the majority and only appeal to a very small proportion of SNCOs. Probably not too many more than are being offered.
[quote=“merlin456” post=8416]There was talk at the CACWO Confrence that eventually WWO will get T&L or a GOLD Crown.
Debate…[/quote]
I’m not convinced of the merits of using gold crowns/T&Ls as badges of position rather than rank.
I know many a SWO that is more deserving of any WWO. It just seems to me that the WOs higher up the chain have badgered for the use of T&Ls. They were told no, then kept badgering until only they, the ones that can be trusted, can wear them.
Trusted to do what, exactly?
It seems to me that the primary criteria for T&Ls is drill pig. But being a WO is so much more than that, but you can’t pass a course in the other things, such as what are referred to as ‘people skills’.
[quote=“the fixer” post=8418][quote=“merlin456” post=8416]There was talk at the CACWO Confrence that eventually WWO will get T&L or a GOLD Crown.
Debate…[/quote]
I’m not convinced of the merits of using gold crowns/T&Ls as badges of position rather than rank.
I know many a SWO that is more deserving of any WWO. It just seems to me that the WOs higher up the chain have badgered for the use of T&Ls. They were told no, then kept badgering until only they, the ones that can be trusted, can wear them.[/quote]Then why aren’t they WWO?
It’s like saying that there are sqn commanders who are better than Wg Cdrs - but if they’re not prepared to take on the responsibility then they don’t get the rank!
The rumour I heard was that one of the reasons this got pushed for was the CACWO felt a bit put out going to meetings with regular RAF WO and “the RAF not recognising his rank” which seams odd because I would thought everyone in the RAF would have been taught tri-service ranks so would have recognised it from the army.
Now the RAF have moved on the Royal Arms, how long before ATC WOs start insisting on a black cane? It does seam that we have a clique (dare I say a WO Mafia) who are interested in nothing more than drill, bling and status, possibly rankled by the fact that even though they are WOs they are not in charge nor have final say on a sqn.
I have lost count of the number of emails I have seen where a Sgt or FS has signed themselves off a SWO, XXX Sqn as they are the senior SNCO on unit. The walting is unprofessional and casts all CFAV in a bad light and even worse, those SNCOs who are not like this and work really really hard in loads of different areas are all tarred with the same brush.
ATC adult NCOs are not part of the RAF, they are not regulars nor crown servants. There are not subject to service law off base and they cannot be court marshalled. They are legally members of a cadet corps and their status & recognition as equivalent to regular SNCOs is a courtesy that the parent service can (and has) revoked at any time. I know of an Army base that has revoked the privleges of the Adult NCOs and now classes them as civilians precisely because a member of staff (ironically an ex-regular I believe) argued that these privileges were a right he was entitled to).
Regarding the badges, either everyone has equal opportunity or no one does. Make it minimum 5 years between all ranks but have WO1 and WO2 (the ATC is a cadet Corps and can make up its one ranks) - That way the quickest someone could end up going though to the T&Ls would be 15 years which is getting on a par with regular service (youngest age for T&L would be 35 rather than 30). The T&Ls need to have a long and wide experience not just a quick tick box along side time served.
However if the powers that be decide to have SNCOs go VR(T) then I would expect T&L would be issued for all (although the promotion criteria might be more stricter). Regardless we shouldn’t be introducing it just because someone feels out of place at meetings.
P.S.
Whilst we’re at it, nick the J/Cpl or L/Cpl rank from the CCF for the cadets - it works and would be a brilliant way to develop junior leadership. The argument that the RAF doesn’t have it so we don’t need it either is like saying someone who has been blind from birth wouldn’t benefit from being able to see!!
These douchers shouldn’t be in the WO & Sgts Mess either. But that’s another story.
[quote=“Chief Tech” post=8422]Whilst we’re at it, nick the J/Cpl or L/Cpl rank from the CCF for the cadets - it works and would be a brilliant way to develop junior leadership. The argument that the RAF doesn’t have it so we don’t need it either is like saying someone who has been blind from birth wouldn’t benefit from being able to see!![/quote]Probably a subject for a different thread, but I don’t agree - I personally can’t really see the point of CWO. I think you need three NCO ranks - a basic, direct supervisory rank; a rank where you’re expected to delegate and lead leaders; and a rank at which you’re expected to take a greater planning and long-term leadership role.
^^^^^^Best post on here in ages.
LCpl works well, in my experience, as a first NCO rank for those who have undertaken an NCO cadre but are still too young/green to be in charge of a flight. It’s a training rank, like Plt Off…
[quote=“Chief Tech” post=8422]The rumour I heard was that one of the reasons this got pushed for was the CACWO felt a bit put out going to meetings with regular RAF WO and “the RAF not recognising his rank” which seams odd because I would thought everyone in the RAF would have been taught tri-service ranks so would have recognised it from the army.
Now the RAF have moved on the Royal Arms, how long before ATC WOs start insisting on a black cane? It does seam that we have a clique (dare I say a WO Mafia) who are interested in nothing more than drill, bling and status, possibly rankled by the fact that even though they are WOs they are not in charge nor have final say on a sqn.
I have lost count of the number of emails I have seen where a Sgt or FS has signed themselves off a SWO, XXX Sqn as they are the senior SNCO on unit. The walting is unprofessional and casts all CFAV in a bad light and even worse, those SNCOs who are not like this and work really really hard in loads of different areas are all tarred with the same brush.
ATC adult NCOs are not part of the RAF, they are not regulars nor crown servants. There are not subject to service law off base and they cannot be court marshalled. They are legally members of a cadet corps and their status & recognition as equivalent to regular SNCOs is a courtesy that the parent service can (and has) revoked at any time. I know of an Army base that has revoked the privleges of the Adult NCOs and now classes them as civilians precisely because a member of staff (ironically an ex-regular I believe) argued that these privileges were a right he was entitled to).
Regarding the badges, either everyone has equal opportunity or no one does. Make it minimum 5 years between all ranks but have WO1 and WO2 (the ATC is a cadet Corps and can make up its one ranks) - That way the quickest someone could end up going though to the T&Ls would be 15 years which is getting on a par with regular service (youngest age for T&L would be 35 rather than 30). The T&Ls need to have a long and wide experience not just a quick tick box along side time served.
However if the powers that be decide to have SNCOs go VR(T) then I would expect T&L would be issued for all (although the promotion criteria might be more stricter). Regardless we shouldn’t be introducing it just because someone feels out of place at meetings.
P.S.
Whilst we’re at it, nick the J/Cpl or L/Cpl rank from the CCF for the cadets - it works and would be a brilliant way to develop junior leadership. The argument that the RAF doesn’t have it so we don’t need it either is like saying someone who has been blind from birth wouldn’t benefit from being able to see!![/quote]
I agree with pretty much everything you have said however as the ACO seems to have been rebranded as RAF Air Cadets should we not be following the RAF rank structure? if we bring in WO1 and WO2 in blue uniform it would confuse the hell out of a lot of people and there is no need for it.
I liked the way it worked in the past you only wear T&L if you are an ex reg WO makes so much more sense.
Someone mentioned about the RAF using different ranks for different trades you might still see a few JT’s about but its a dead rank not many left now I did hear just before I left Chief Tech was next on the chop however not sure if this is still going to happen… Before anyone mentions it SAC Tech is still an SAC same rank just shows they are a tech trade they are not higher or lower than any other SAC now matter how much they think they might be…
They way it worked in the past was that the T&Ls were worn by anybody who held WO1 or equivalent rank in the regular service or who had been granted them for ATC service on a time-served basis prior to that privilege being withdrawn. Many of the 12 new recipients are already wearing the RAF WO badge on that basis and there are more still throughout the Corps (though I suspect numbers are dwindling)
I have heard nothing about those previous rights to wear T&L being withdrawn and I doubt they would even try.
1 think only 3 have not at present and then 3 wo’s at the CAC’s discretion…
[quote=“wokkaman” post=8468]1 think only 3 have not at present and then 3 wo’s at the CAC’s discretion…[/quote]I wonder what the criteria will be when deciding who gets to be the extra 3.
My WWO wears T&L’s, he’s the only person I’ve ever seen wearing them.
Velcro tongue?