SNCO/WO & Comissioned Officers - Relationship of Authority, and place in the big picture

By the time our cadets are looking to transition into staff service we have worked so closely with them for long enough that they are under no illusion as to what the role of squadron staff entails.

Though what I hear from cadets who have taken time out of uniform before going into uniformed staff service is almost always that they feel like they are no longer a proper part of the organisation during that period.
I do not look down on CIs but in a uniformed organisation they do stand apart. If someone has served as a cadet in uniform for maybe 7 years and has taken an active role in the gamut of squadron activities then suddenly being out of uniform puts them on the periphery.

I believe that continuation of uniformed service (if that is what the individual prefers) is important and the problems which some people have when cadets turn into staff just need to be addressed in a different way.

[quote=“glass half empty 2” post=13126]Also as suggested, as a CI people can take time to evaluate the route that’s best for them, ie uniform or stay as a CI. Those who choose the latter shouldn’t be regarded as a lesser being, which unfortunately some senior officers seem to, given remarks I’ve heard along the lines of “why haven’t you gone into uniform”. [/quote]One could argue that this is partially a result of using CI as a ‘stepping stone’.

If CI was an end in itself, then CIs might be left alone to get on with being a CI!

[quote=“incubus” post=13130]Though what I hear from cadets who have taken time out of uniform before going into uniformed staff service is almost always that they feel like they are no longer a proper part of the organisation during that period.

If someone has served as a cadet in uniform for maybe 7 years and has taken an active role in the gamut of squadron activities then suddenly being out of uniform puts them on the periphery.[/quote]
I did about as long as it was possible to do as a cadet (more than the 7 years of today) and then did 5 years as a CI. I couldn’t have been more involved in the Corps as a cadet. As a CI didn’t feel I was on the periphery and didn’t feel like I wasn’t part of the organisation. I went on camps, courses, flying/gliding details and everything else that uniformed staff did. The only thing I didn’t have to worry about was a uniform and to that end didn’t have to go on parades (no real shakes), although I still attended.

I would suggest they feel like that because they lack the imagination to relish the role of being a CI and the general freedoms it bestows to explore the ATC as an adult without the expectation having a uniform/rank brings. How they feel in the organisation IMO only depends on how much they really want to get involved. If they have a line of thought I can’t … because I’m a CI, then what are they doing here now and what are they going to do if they are in uniform, not a lot, except drill (SNCO and Officer) and if commissioned at some time in the coming years run a sqn and maybe go onto Wing. The latter 2 are largely an aside to the main role of adults in the ATC ie instruct. You can do this buck naked if you so desired … that is the clothing you wear be it civilian or a military uniform makes no difference, it’s the person stood there and their manner and approach that matters, not the clothes. Maybe the cadets don’t understand this.

I also wonder if these cadets actually look at the reality of a percieved 30-40 years adult service in uniform and the expectations of others in that role, on top of a real life which will involve jobs with maybe redundancy, relationships, marriage with maybe a divorce thrown in, children and the plethora of ‘problems’ they bring etc etc etc. So being a CI can mean enjoying the ATC hobby at your pace and not one forced/dictated by others. As the RAF contracts, I can see people within the RAF wanting more and more to do with the ATC to help justify their existence (already happened to some extent wrt OASC) and as such the uniformed CFAV will be made to dance to their tunes. One of my old WSOs (now a Sqn Chairman) said he’s glad he retired when he did, as he said the ‘fun’ has seemed to have gone out of the Corps and it’s got a lot more involved than when he was doing it and he reckons this will only increase for everyone involved in the Corps, voluntarily.

Does anyone off hand know the average retention rate for CFAVs in the Air Cadets?

I think the last person to ask this question was Gordo… and he was very surprised to discover there was no method of measuring for that information using our data infrastructure at the time!

Since then SMS happened, and you’d like to think it could generate such a report (at a high level)… you’d like to think that anyway…

This thread seems to have veered into a CI/uniform staff debate as opposed to the original questions reference the relationship between VRT staff and Adult SNCOs…

[quote=“Racing Stick” post=13120]

I’m with Baldrick here. I absolutely agree. EVERY member of CFAV should go through the CI route. Moving a CWO or C/FSgt into a Adult Sgt rank is an unnecessary burden on them and the Sqn. Being made a CI promotes a great deal of self discovery; allowing that individual to see the major difference between being a Cadet and an adult member of staff.

My personal opinions? I hope that on either of the boards, the SNCO or Officers; one of the determining factors for passing is having decent common sense. Ensuring that factor is paramount might go some way to preventing any animosity, either perceived or otherwise between Officers and SNCO’s. Ultimately, we are all in the same boat. We all have to pull together to the benefit of the small people that we nurture. There shouldn’t be angst between us. Now, I don’t live a life through rose coloured spectacles and acknowledge that angst will always occur. However, the forces; all of them, have always had a quasi-dictum: The Officers command but the SNCO’s are in charge. Is that right? Maybe. But if it is or isn’t, it matters not. We are, as I mentioned, all part of the same organisation and all doing ostensibly the same job. Yes, we will get good and bad SNCO’s and Officer’s, that’s the nature of the beast I’m afraid. Let’s just all try and work together for the good of the ACO.[/quote]

My bold - This bit doesn’t quite work for the ACO, although I think some staff try and force it to be. There is too few adult staff available and sometimes the officers have to get stuck in. There are several people in the organisation who believe that there are ‘Officer Only’ Jobs and “SNCO Only” jobs and Officer shouldn’t get involved. This is hogwash and leads to situations where some SNCOs try to run the sqn their way and don’t like being challenged. I remember Mitch being very clear at ATF that whilst Officers shouldn’t end up teaching drill, it wasn’t forbidden and it was our job to make sure it was being taught right and get involved if weren’t happy with it.

At the end of the day the operations and responsibility for what happens on a Sqn rests on the CO’s head, not the WO or SNCO. At lot of the new SNCOs need to understand that and the fact that at the end of the day the decision rests with the Officer not them. The officer will often be privy to information that the SNCO hasn’t or can’t be told which affects what decision is made. However, counterpoint that with new officers who need to understand if that they say No all the time they disenfranchise their team and regardless of their opinions everybody deserves to be treated with dignity and respect. That may mean that they have to explain their orders so the SNCOs can understand where they are coming from as the days of just doing exactly what your told, when your told, how your told are long gone especially in a volunteer organisation.

The role of an SNCO should be to warn, to advise and support the officer in the decision making process and should never become a hinderance. But in return for this the Officer should never neglect the SNCO, be it physically or developmentally in terms of training and skills. The Officer also has a DUTY never to put the SNCO in a compromising situation or give them an instruction or task that would leave them exposed morally or legally. It is meant to be a two way street but I feel in some areas it has divided into them and us camps.

There are those out there who simply do not like being told what to do and almost revel in the idea of causing trouble for those above them, and effectively have a chip on their shoulder. Sometimes these people are in low responsibility jobs or have poor relationships with their real life bosses. However this is no excuse to use the ACO to further your own ego by causing stress for others. Over the years it has seamed that more of this insidious attitude of “officers are stupid” has crept in and it feel that sometimes you are dealing more with a militant trade union than volunteers in a military organisation.

Regarding the issue of CI - I couldn’t agree more and actually allows the individual to develop a lot of the skills they will need as a uniform member of staff but wouldn’t have time if they went straight into uniform. It would also allow them to be trained by officers and SNCOs so which ever route they take it would give them a greater insight so its will cause less problems down the line. It would also work out cheaper - how many uniform staff leave at 24/25 once they have finished University and start developing their own life and career?

I will finish on one final note - I know of a WO who takes great delight in boasting that they do not put their hat on so they do not have to salute. A result of this is that enforcement of saluting is very weak and teamwork or the unit is poor. To me the salute is one of the things that binds us together as a team, and if not a mark of subservience. When I am saluted it says to me that the SNCO acknowledges my authority, that I have their support and they are placing their trust in me. Returning the salute, to me, means that I am acknowledging their support and trust and I undertake to look after, not give them unreasonable orders as well as acknowledging the duty of care I have to that individual to give guidance, leadership and take care of their welfare. This simple, unspoken act helps bring a team together and letting it break down (that is becoming too casual) can result in things separating and staff working at cross purposes.

A lot of poor officers do not feel comfortable with the idea of leading from the front and challenging behaviour and that poor leadership results in poor SNCOs not being use to being challenged and causing problems when they are. My father is an ex RAF Chf Tech and quoted to me several times over my life the phrase that if you are unable to follow orders, you will never be able to give orders, something that I try to keep in mind when making my own decisions.

Racing Snake - you got it pretty much bang on. If you aren’t able to lead and take responsibility of cadets/staff without a uniform then being given a rank isn’t going to change things. Much better to learn as a CI rather than undermine yourself as a newbie pilot Officer or Sgt.

The problem is and I’ve heard potential SNCOs and officers told it during the run up to and in pre-boards that officers manage and dictate policy and SNCOs impliment. Fine perhaps if you’ve got the staff I’ve always taken a view that if the job needs to be done get on with it and it doesn’t matter what uniform, if any, (with the potential exception of drill) they wear.
The message needs to be enforced throughout the Corps, that as you say we are all in this together and we can’t afford on the majority of sqns the luxury of officers sittiing around only doing paperwork and SNCOs only doing ‘traditional’ SNCO type things. This needs to be the message at Wing level and more importantly at ATF.
As much as possible I’m out in front of the cadets instructing (we are afterall all instructors in a youth organisation) as it’s boring sitting around paper-shuffling all the time. It also enables me to say to the other staff if I can make the time, then what’s your excuse.

SMS doesn’t allow cadet to staff transitions (they have to end their service as a cadet, then have a staff record created) - hence it prob doesn’t collect that data. Westminster allows re-rolling from cadet to staff so the system is more joined up.

Blimey, that’s quite a thread resurrection!

On that point it is of course ludicrous that a new record must be created.
Interestingly, a recent SMS glitch accidentally marked my staff record as a “cadet”.
I still appeared in the “staff” tab but I appeared on the cadet register and stats. On any SMS activities I could only be added via the “add cadets” link where I was marked as a “Staff cadet”.
I lost the ability to promote myself to staff ranks.

A helpdesk request was required to set the “staff flag” on my record and put me back in the right place.

This rather proves that with a little tweak SMS could be updated to allow the transfer of Cadet to Staff.

Oh I’m sooooo confused, Been an Adult SNCO for two years, CI for a year previous to that. Not sure if I am from Bad Lads Army or the Sally Army? Do I advise the Officer Cadre, dare I speak to the real RAF people. The ACO have some strange rules that must be obeyed at all costs. ALL Adult SNCO’s must go on the SNCO course? Why?
I can carry out my duties just fine and not been on the course. I always treat people what ever their rank the same way I expect to be treated. Never had an issue.