There is a decent idea. Not bad at all.
We already have leading and senior though, wouldn’t that confuse things?
And the parent service does have L/Cpls, albeit in a limited sense.
Issue is it is not a rank as such, but a classification. For desired effect it would need to be on a rank slide.
That is how cadets visually differentiate NCOs and Cadets.
They decided to bring in Master classifications, they can jiggle around with it. Or make the senior classification into that rank.
And in my 8 years in I still haven’t encountered a non-army LCpl.
1 Like
What abour combining the classification system into the rank structure. Using experience, skills and knowledge to combine the two. A rough blue sky thinking idea below
Junior Cadet - newbie
First Class - Mentor to the newbies.
Leading (Corporal) - general control of cadets
Senior (Lead Corporal/Sergeant) - Flight Commander. Duty NCO Role
MAC (Sgt/FS) - Senior Role within Sqn. Duty SNCO
Instructor Cadet (CWO) - Senior NCO on Squadron. Support staff team in a role.
1 Like
They brought it in after I left, so I never encountered one either, but they’re out there… Somewhere…
It is, but with 2 things called the same there’s a risk of confusion.
Just make that into the LAC rank, kill two birds with one stone. LAC doesn’t mean anything in the RAF anyway, just means you’ve somehow scrapped through the 60% pass mark of training.
And yeah I get the confusion side of things. I’ve got a friend who works in ATC and is an SI in the ATC. Can’t keep on top of it.
1 Like
I’d counter that the only reason the RAF has “senior” SACs is because they would have to pay them more as LCpls I’m not convinced by that for our purposes.
1 Like
Out of curiosity, why does our adult NCO cadre begin at sergeant and not corporal?
I’m aware at one point we only had WOs, but why introduce a rank structure only beginning at sergeant?
There is talk of introducing Cpl at the same time as the ATC reduce the age limit to 18.
1 Like
Yeah, but why do we currently start from sergeant?
Given that we are staff a lot longer than we are cadets, it gives a larger scope for development over the long period of time.
I’m sure someone on here is a WO and is 29? I may be corrected, I just seem to remember reading that. I am not saying there is anything wrong with that, don’t read that as negative. However, potentially that is another 30+ years with no more advancement in the NCO cadre.
2 Likes
Yep thats me!
3 Likes
I thought it was but I didn’t want to be wrong and seem silly.
I came to realise quick quickly you have to be one of two people when it come to the situation im in you either need to be a person who is quite happy plodding a long or a person who wants a bigger role (i.e WWO or RWO). There are grumblings of WO only being given to a CFAV carrying out a role benefiting the wing or x amount of experience
1 Like
While it’s veering from the topic, it’s not too dissimilar in the officer cadre. Yes, there’s the possibility of WSO and higher, just as there’s the possibility of WWO/RWO, but there are a great many officers who will actively avoid such roles, staying at Flight Lieutenant for just as long as someone might stay as WO.
2 Likes
The main reason is to do with messing, if you go onto a Station you generally have Cadets in the Cadets Block/Tents, NCO’s and CI’s in the Sergeants Mess and Officers in the Officers Mess. If you start the NCO ranks lower down you suddenly need accomodation in Transit Accomodation for these Staff Cpl’s.
3 Likes
Don’t see point/need in the same way that I don’t see the point/need of acting ranks, if someone is good enough to be a Cpl then make them a Cpl, you can always make the promotion “probationary” for the first 3 months to ensure they don’t slip as soon as they get the stripes.
Deep down how much responsibility do people think a Cpl really has that they need a more junior NCO below them?
2 Likes
We have L/Cpls in the CCF and when we have a full complement of establishment NCOs they don’t generally have any duties which wouldn’t be given to a senior cadet on an ATC unit. Often it’s given as a thank you to cadets for hard work who aren’t quite ready for Cpl but who we want to encourage. I wouldn’t push hard for L/Cpl in the ATC unless CWO was going to change dramatically (i.e being a wing only appointment with far fewer permitted than now) with the drop to 18 age limit.
1 Like
Ah that makes sense, thank you.
Another case of why?
We have a rank system for cadets that works quite nicely and has done for 81 years. I think the only (and only) reason CCF have L/Cpl is because the CCF was historically Army and the Air Cadet, cadet rank structure was to fit in with that. Community Air Cadets didn’t have that history and was a correlation with the RAF, which the early Air Cadets was a preparation for service in.
The only reason that the notion of adult Cpls has come up is control and finger pointing. I feel people are scared that as and when Air Cadets drop the upper age to 18, there will be 18 year old CIs and of course those cadets who think because of 3-4 years dressing up, to not have a uniform as an adult, makes them somehow lesser. Which begs the question what do we do to these youngsters so they within such a short time is they get such an over inflated perception of themselves?
We may try and delude ourselves that an Adult Cpl would be about development, but development requires a much, much larger set up than we have at squadron level and properly defined role and tasks within that role. When you start work you start as “the boy” or “the girl”, doing all the things juniors do and learning the job and getting entrusted to do more things. We don’t have this in any way, shape or form in the Air Cadets. You get a job or rank and some vague terms of reference, but essentially you are dumped in the deep end and left to get on with it.
However since new SNCO system while having its promotion scheme came in, it just meant that those that would have become Warrant Officers became Sergeants and on many, many, many squadrons the notional “Squadron Warrant Officers” became Sergeants. So all it did was deflate the position by two ranks, as you still had someone doing what the “Warrant Officer” did, but as Sergeants. Introduce adult Cpl and you can bet your last penny that there will be squadrons where the senior adult NCO will be a Cpl, doing all the things expected of WOs. Also it will still mean that people become WOs after 15 and not 10 years and potentially be WOs for in the case of say a 20 year old, for 30 years, with little else to do, unless they commissioned.