It also includes traveling time which easily add an hour or sometimes more to many people’s parade night.
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Bingo
and
Bingo
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The joining process is balls.
Initial paperwork
DBS
Interview
Now also boss
Then WAIT for HQAC to appoint them before their probation as a CI can start… I mean WTFrick.
New staff cant be added to SMS and therefore even start the mandatory training until all the above is completed.
Fastest is 6 to 9 months in my wing from expressing an interest to getting logged on SMS.
More typically 9 to 12 months.
It’s a total joke.
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This. So much this. I’m in the process of going through selection for a public appointment. If successful it will be 14 months from start to finish including various consultations. That is quicker than it took me to join as staff. Considering the different levels of importance in roles, and the competitive nature of the process, it’s simply inexcusable that appointment as a CFAV takes longer and has to be why we lose so many potential staff over both branches of RAFAC after initial expression of interest.
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I see some valid points for all going in to uniform as a uniformed organisation but the RAF and other uniformed services wouldn’t be able to do their jobs without the civilian counterparts nowadays.
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“Thanks for coming down, we’re desperate for staff and want to get you involved. Glad to see you’re so keen! Fill out this mountain of intrusive paperwork please.
What? Start next week? Oh no no no, we can’t even have you escorted on squadron as a visitor now you’ve filled that paperwork out, you’ll need to wait for at least your dbs…
Yes I know that SHOULD only take a working week, but we send it to wing you see, and they post it to Siberia, or something, so it actually takes 6 months - if you’re lucky!
Once that comes back we can start our 12 point mandatory training, oh and you have to do a weekend AVIP, they run at least twice a year.
Until then maybe read about NATO, or something, I don’t know your probably not coming back.
Sorry no, you can’t even help with basic admin, you’d need access to Bader SMS, so you need that DBS, your responsible for information module, and AVIP… yes I’m serious! We can’t let you even input a register…
Thanks for coming down, and for being so keen, now please hurry up and wait. We’re so very desperate for staff…”
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So should we leave the CI rank for “retired” uniformed staff still?
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I think that’s one of the few examples where there’s still a case for it.
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If you have a band, i did 3 nights and events as well.
I have actually heard other people say this. Can you say why though? What didn’t you do as a CI that you now do in uniform that’s more fun?
because we’re a uniform organisation.
the same reason any organisation has a uniform.
The Police, Ambulance/hospital workers, and lesser degree (as its more PPE related) Fire Service
Schools
the Scouts
St Johns
Tesco Security guards
all wear uniforms and are recognisable in the role with the uniform in some shape or form is part of the role
I think some are too scared of saying “no” to some potential Staff.
Although in my experience those who aren’t suitable tend to think they can just turn up and help here and there and soon disappear when they realise 98% of CFAVs are dedicated bunch working hard to deliver opportunities
the common example is ex-Cadets coming back after 2-3 years away, who want to join who never shone as Cadets, and appear to have continued that path into adulthood. never of fan of them as a Cadet, its hard to see them becoming a rock for the Squadron.
this^^
I’d rather a smaller team of high quality staff than a team three times the size but are drifters who we see once a month when it suits them.
As successful as the ACF maybe at getting CFAVs into uniform, i can’t say i have been impressed with ACF staff. In my time I have moved around and had a fair share of ACF engagements in different regions, and with my RBL hat on in my extended local community.
Only the professional (ie full time paid) ACF Staff have really impressed me, the vast majority of the CFAVs appear to be “cruising”, i’ve certainly never thought “i wish we had you on our unit”
that maybe because of who the ACF appeals to, the demographic who it interacts with i don’t know…but whether it is informally in a shared tea room at a joint training facility, polite conversation at an event or formal correspondence via email i have found the ACF CFAV are very “average” in comparison
the exceptions have been those who have been happy to engagement with the ATC. going back some years now we had a ACF CFAV join us at our Wing shooting regularly and was great.
likewise had some ACF staff turn up at RIAT and found them a joy to work with, but it has only been those who have been happy working with us/approach us that have impressed.
Which one is it?
better to be selling them a lie??
the second quote is almost true - of all the OCs I have worked with (9) the most successful were the ones whose life it took over and are/were either single, gay (so little family commitment), or old enough kids had grown up and moved on
and in terms of timings, also not far off. in the last three years i know of three CIs who are now OCs after 18 months or are expected to be soon.
i agree we should be better at recruiting into the uniform role, but also better at making it more appealing by making the horror stories the exception and not the rule.
you say this as if our current Uniformed cadre can wear it correctly, can do drill and are shining examples of “the Blue suit footprint”.
i know what you’re getting at, and yes we should get some training in how to wear the uniform and how to take part in drill but but pandemic aside, how many of us actually got on the parade square even once a quarter? My guessing for those who are not DIs, CFAVs experience of “drill” was in November for Remembrance, perhaps September for those who have a BoB parade or one other occasion (Wing event)
we all know examples of uniform staff (at least one) who is a poor representation of the RAFAC/RAF and I am sure roll our eyes every time we see that CFAV who still can’t wear a beret, or has to be reminded to take out her loopy earrings.
That training even in its current form either doesn’t work or is a skill rarely practiced.
it is a requirement which isn’t enforced. see above my previous posts for more on this.
those in uniform who don’t meet 12 hours, are probably not of a concern to the OC as when they do attend it is worthwhile. I’d rather have quality over quantity.
and would rather two uniformed staff i see once a week and are useful, than 4 CIs who turn up 100% but do very little.
^this
and i believe is the fault of the RAF.
HQAC is fed by a RAF ethos, and the RAF (MOD) recruitment process is not fast. We all know someone/ex-Cadet (or have experienced) who has applied and doubt anyone can say it took someone less than 6 months. now I accept that part of the reason for this is to test how determined that individual is to join Her Majesty’s Armed Forces, but do we need to test the resolve of potential youth workers?
my answer is no, but HQAC’s recruitment process isn’t approaching this as if thse are volunteer youth workers but an application process which has many parallels with “joining up”
That same RAF ethos at HQAC filters down to WHQs and in turn down to Units and it then becomes accepted as the norm. When I aged out as a Cadet and was asked to be Staff I instantly accepted and indicated I wanted to move into uniform. it took the best part of 9 months to complete that process - with someone who was known and even invited onto the Staff team. how and why potential staff who come “off the street” wait that long (to be appointed a CI) i don’t understand, i realy don’t understand.
i was waiting for someone to offer this argument and it is true. but how many of the uniformed members would rather those roles were not run by civilians and kept in house?
yes the parent service is a mix of uniform and civilian contractors so why shouldn’t we match that?
well those contractors are specialists, they only do one role, lets take MT as an example.
the MT driver is there to be a driver, not there to drive the troops to the range, then run the range.
the MT driver is there to be a driver, not there to drive the troops to the AT location then utlise their NGB Qualification
if we look at the catering, the chefs are there to cook the meals and manage the mess, not then donning their PTS and then jumping on a Chinnook for the afternoons exercise.
the fact that the RAF has a civilian arm to it, can only apply to the RAFAC if we treat CIs like their are contractors too - and only in place for a single role.
the RAF does not employee civilian contractors to wear more than one hat, yet our CIs are as multi-hatted as uniform CFAVs
it isn’t necesaarily something that I “do” now in uniform that i couldn’t as a CI - but i enjoy the uniform and was keen in the 9 months as a CI to get back into it, as it was a natural position for me. I wanted to be completely involved, and part of the organisation. I want to be part of the military “role play” we take part in, with ranks, compliments, salutes and all the rest of what comes from the feeling of being part of the organisation.
I never felt included as a CI, I never felt that I could step in with a discipline hat on, or a uniform hat on - i wasn’t a role model for the Cadets (or other Staff) i was someone who turned up and did their bit, but always on the sidelines.
now this is a personal account, long term CIs may not feel this at all, and have been better intergrated into the Squadron team than I ever felt. for me there was always something missing when I was a CI and although can’t put my finger on it, know I stand taller in uniform than i ever did as a CI
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Thanks for that extensive reply . . .
Yep that’s fair, and as @wdimagineer2b has mentioned, the perception is that all us Uniformed CFAV are ex-forces, further creating that “them and us” barrier.
Realistically, how much of our training at ATF could not be delivered closer to home, in a manner more appropriate for volunteers?
There is no policy saying we have to meet twice a week, plus Scouts and Explorers (our equivalent age groups) normally meet at the same sort of time 7pm - 9.30pm.
A mindset shift is required to be supporting and encouraging your less qualified staff by the sounds of it. Scout leaders don’t just “jump in” either, they need guidance and training. If a CFAV in a management role can’t be bothered to make a small effort to find a role/task for the willing (but unqualified) volunteer then no wonder we have been dropping in numbers consistently for years.
Nope, off to the CWC and if you still want to be involved in certain activities be registered CWC.
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which is basically a CI in all but name…
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I think this is a very good question, but not the right question. I always thought like this, why go into uniform when I can do everything I want as a CI. So in that regard, other than taking part in parades, I don’t do anything more or particularly differently.
But it has changed the things I already do. Not massively, it is very nuanced.
There is a little bit more pride in the organisation when I pull the uniform on. The cadets react differently to you, not massively, but they do - it is hard to put my finger on it. And that isn’t to say you need a uniform do a job, or be authoritative… but the reaction is different.
That reaction extends from cadets to other CFAV’s, parents and other parties we might deal with. It just feels like your position is very clear cut. For example of an outsiders point of view; you are “in charge” whereas as a CI I was as well, but generally parents/the school we are in etc would gravitate towards a uniformed member of staff - the perception of them being staff and civvies people being “helpers”.
I think that generally speaking with CI’s there is such a gulf of difference between the “quality” - some super CI’s putting in lots of work through to casual ones that you see once every two months - whereas in uniform there is more of an expectation that you will perform at a certain bench mark standard.
So for me it just formalised what I was already doing.
Emotionally, the benefits of drill and uniform are quite well known, the feeling of belonging, pride, discipline… I felt these things before as a CI but I feel them a lot more acutely now.
It is a very difficult question to answer. But there seem to be lots of little reasons why I enjoy doing what I do a little bit more - but it has nothing to do with opening up more activities.
I’m a naturally very confident person - I work in a heavily people focussed industry, so I like to think I have good interpersonal skills… And I can talk to anyone about anything - but even without needing a little boost, there is something empowering about putting the uniform on - and not in a Hitler kind of way, but just that people expect you to know what you’re talking about and to have authority…
I think I’m explaining this badly, and have made myself sound like an egomaniac. But that isn’t how it is at all.
It is a tricky to think to explain!
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This seems like an odd take on things…
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That’s incredibly reductive and, frankly, insulting to an awful lot of highly dedicated and (usually) time rich people who want to be a part of the organisation.
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ok, semantics! I should have asked a better question:
Why do we need solely uniformed staff?
I would agree with @JoeBloggs - all of the examples you’ve given are very specific community roles, which mirror their professional equivalents. We do not do that. A better comparison would be with Police Cadets (https://vpc.police.uk/) - they have leaders who don’t wear uniforms, despite the fact they are (arguably) much more closely linked to their local force than we are to the RAF.
We do need uniformed staff, but we don’t need all staff to be uniformed.
this is how some (probably many) CIs want to be perceived. They don’t want anyone to consider that they are in charge - this doesn’t mean they don’t have other useful skills
I am utterly sure that you (and @steve679, and others) have not meant to imply this, but there is an underlying “I wanted to be included into the clique, which I wasn’t when I was a CI” - if this the way that some Wings are coercing people into uniform, then this is part of the problem
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In which case there is no need for them to retire as uniformed staff is there? (It’s not like a decade ago when they were forced to retire at 55.)
Which is closer to what a CI is supposed to be.
It was never intended that CI’s do or be allowed to do all of the things that they currently do. Rules were relaxed due to a perceived lack of uniformed staff and this was a mistake which has now created an actual shortage of uniformed staff.
The solution is either to snap the rules back to get all of these CI’s who are doing Uniformed roles to go into Uniform (a bad idea which will cause a shed load of CI’s to leave) or to stop appointing new CI’s.