No school year 8. My children had plenty of mates who were 13 before the end of September. What this does is not exclude the ones who do hit 13 before say the end of October, having their mates join with them.
Over the years I’ve had a number of cadets who have joined within a few days of hitting 13 and 3 as it was and then 13. Believe me having had 3 children there is no magic switch in terms of maturity, or whatever you might like to refer it as, between 12 years 365 days and 13. They are exactly the same, just another year older. It the same for everything where there is an arbitrary age applied. When I hit 50, my car insurance went down quite considerably, just because I was 50. Nothing at all to do with me as an individual.
This is the bit that concerns me. What they can do as say a 12 year old or before they hit our arbitrary age points, should have been all done at the same time.
I have to admit I am surprised at the speed of the decision, how successful it is depends on the speed of the decisions around activities that can be done.
I still see plenty of references to 13 and 3 months - I would have thought that those would have been wiped out already when the enrolment age of 13&3 was dropped
I think CWO should now be lost as a rank, as old time CWO now it is only something to add to the collection. The majority aren’t in post long enough to be what I would call proper CWOs. The only element pre LASER Review was CWO to continue cadet service between 20 and 22.[/quote]
Proper CWO’s or not, it doesn’t seem to bother the CCF, so why should ATC cadets be ‘disadvantaged’ (with the cessation of CWO) compared to their CCF peers?
I think there is a world of difference between the CCF and what I will refer to as the normal ATC. My understanding is cadet parades in the CCF are managed in the general school day and then if they are boarders they have nowhere else to go. My general experience of those hitting “upper 6th” is reduced attendance/participation as they are combining part-time work with studies. So a reduction to 18 across the ACO, would IMO solve a number of problems.
Here’s a question that has just occurred to me. Do schools with integrated 6th Forms DBS all those over 18? If not, especially in the case of schools with a CCF what is the difference between an 18 year old in the ‘cadets’ and an 18 year old who is not a cadet. I’ve been into a couple of local schools which have in the last few years opened 6th Forms and over 18s freely mix with all pupils. I imagine there are those in the “upper 6th” with relationships with minors. It makes you wonder why we and other youth organisations get so tetchy about it, I don’t think the working with argument stands up, as they aren’t IMO really working with them as adult staff do.
As for age points for activities, I don’t think that the ATC has properly managed/addressed these since the minimum joining age was changed from 13 yrs 3 mths and minimum enrolment was 13 yrs 9 mths.
Schools don’t need to DBS over 18 because they are not in a position of responsibility/authority like over 18 cadets ‘supposedly’ are. There are plenty of places over and under 18s mix but where DBS isn’t an issue.
So prefect or whatever (if schools still have them) aren’t positions of responsibility/authority? Generally these are the older pupils.
Back in the day when I was a prefect you were considered to be in an authoratative position, OK I wasn’t 18, but like all things it was open to abuse. However it was well before all this malarky and BS we have to go through today.
[quote=“juliet mike” post=19708]Schools don’t need to DBS over 18 because they are not in a position of responsibility/authority like over 18 cadets ‘supposedly’ are. There are plenty of places over and under 18s mix but where DBS isn’t an issue.
[/quote]
I would be very surprised if 18+ cadets were considered to be in a position of responsibility under the law.
This is the grey area with “Staff Cadets”. The intention was for them to be probationary staff, hence they would have some responsibilities over a younger cadet.
If I’m honest “staff cadets” are given no more if not less responsibility than we did 30 odd years ago and we weren’t officially considered as probationary staff, like they are now.
[quote=“talon” post=19710][quote=“juliet mike” post=19708]Schools don’t need to DBS over 18 because they are not in a position of responsibility/authority like over 18 cadets ‘supposedly’ are. There are plenty of places over and under 18s mix but where DBS isn’t an issue.
[/quote]
I would be very surprised if 18+ cadets were considered to be in a position of responsibility under the law.[/quote]
HQAC has made it quite clear that they are. The fact that they have to be DBSed and ‘approved and appointed’ by Wing backs this up and means that it’s the position I would take if I was suing the ATC for millions after something happened to my child. Over 18s in school are basically still ‘de jure’ kids, because the school can still act in loco parentis for them, although their actual parents can’t.
Hence why you ACF wallahs have had to bring the leaving age down to 18. You can’t have a bunch of unchecked and unregulated adults running about with other people’s kids. It might be bizarre that one day they’re fine and the next they’re not, but it isn’t arbitrary; your 18th birthday is legally the point at which you become and adult, that’s just how it is.
They may not have command or rank responsibility, but as adults they have a legal and moral responsibility.
The fact that most ATC staff choose to basically ignore this and derp about the place accommodating adults with kids or leaving them unattended or not training them properly is just one of the things about the Air Cadets that makes me shake my head in wonder. Basically, it’s a ‘grey area’ until something goes horribly wrong and someone ends up shafted by the courts.
[quote=“tango_lima” post=19761]
HQAC has made it quite clear that they are. The fact that they have to be DBSed and ‘approved and appointed’ by Wing backs this up and means that it’s the position I would take if I was suing the ATC for millions after something happened to my child. [/quote]
Not in quite the same way that a school teacher is, as their position is defined in legislation. Can I assume that staff cadets sign terms of service or similar?
[quote=“talon” post=19762][quote=“tango_lima” post=19761]
HQAC has made it quite clear that they are. The fact that they have to be DBSed and ‘approved and appointed’ by Wing backs this up and means that it’s the position I would take if I was suing the ATC for millions after something happened to my child. [/quote]
Not in quite the same way that a school teacher is, as their position is defined in legislation. Can I assume that staff cadets sign terms of service or similar?[/quote]
Not in the same way as a school teacher, no, but that statement applies to all CFAVs.
They have to fill out an application form and sign a piece of paper that basically says: ‘You are an adult and must conduct yourself appropriately, do not have sex with the cadets or be friends with them on facebook’.
Squadron OCs are under no obligation to get the paperwork from Wing for them to fill out, either. If the OC doesn’t feel the 17 year old is suitable to be a staff cadet, they should show them the door. However, I only know of that happening in one case and mostly the paperwork and BASIC is seen as a bit of a formality.
It doesn’t help that the rules seem to vary in places depending on who wrote them. ACP 04 makes it clear that it is inappropriate for any adult to have a relationship with a cadet and that this is incompatible with being a part of the Corps, then makes an exception for staff cadets having relationships with cadets aged 16 and 17 where there is no objection from the parents, then forbids 20 and 21 year old CIs/Sgts/VRT from having a relationship with 18 or 19 year old staff cadets. Rightly or wrongly, 19 year old Staff Cadet Smith jumping into bed with 16 year old Cadet Jones IS potentially a child protection issue; 19 year old Staff Cadet Smith jumping into bed with 20 year old CI Bloggs ISN’T and can’t be because they’re both adults. But the second example will see teddies thrown from prams and the first won’t even cause a raised eyebrow.
In my opinion, it’s all a colossal foul up and the ATC should just fall into line with legislation and say 18 = adult = member of staff. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, the current state of affairs will lead to someone getting into serious trouble, especially with the ‘peado finder general’ attitude prevalent today.
Much of this applies to any new staff.
Take a new CI, they fill out a form, get shown as not having been caught for anything wrt children, have a few chats with people, do a BASIC and off you go. Their experience of supervising cadets could be non existent.
Apply it to a cadet moving into adult service if all the paperwork’s been done in time, you could be leaving them to do look after cadets on their own, on or the day after their 20th birthday, perfectly acceptable and in line with the rules. Whereas a couple of days before, it would have been a no no. They could be in uniform with all the extras that would bring in the eyes of any parents or others.
I know that the same would apply to an 18 year old, but they wouldn’t have been an adult in the eyes of the law.
Schools with 6th forms don’t and are not required to DBS over-18s, and the latter are free to have relationships with anyone over 16. Most schools (especially boarding) have rules on appropriate behaviour (e.g. No sex on school premises, or even no holding hands…). Over-18s in boarding schools share boarding accommodation with 11 year olds in some cases.
AIUI CCF summer camps are not required to segregate over 18 cadets.