I’m generally for it, although very much with the caveat that we’ll need to adjust age requirements for things.
I am right in thinking that we’re still supposed to enrol cadets after one month (therefore as young as 13.1) but can’t enrol them until they’re 13.3?
[quote=“MattB” post=15504]I’m generally for it, although very much with the caveat that we’ll need to adjust age requirements for things.
I am right in thinking that we’re still supposed to enrol cadets after one month (therefore as young as 13.1) but can’t enrol them until they’re 13.3?[/quote]I’m pretty sure they took the 13/3 limit off eventually - we’ve certainly not followed it for a while. They didn’t do it immediately though (and we still have some things that seem to specify 13/3 as a min age) which is why I’m not confident that any change to the entry criteria will be achievable without much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
I have no inherent issue with a slight reduction in the entry age on the condition that everything is put in place beforehand and the new recruits can immediately participate as fully as possible. It seems that will include new parachutes for AEF/VGS to deal with the greater proportion of smaller people we could expect to want to fly - the current size restrictions are already causing issues.
OK let’s talk specific then. Shooting and overseas camps for starters. Maybe someone reading this at HQAC will take note:
Current regs say 14 for shooting L98A2.
Current regs say 16 for overseas camp (or is it 15? Can’t recall at the moment)
My bold - makes sense - you’ll go far with this sort of thinking.
Just not in the ACO though!
My question is what problem would this change solve, versus the problems it creates.
So far I can’t see any decent reason for changing to 12+ (year 8), versus the status quo.
I’m not sure where this thinking of “if you’re don’t agree to the age lowering you’re a negative heretic” bit is coming from? Everyone has the right to make a point.
There have been some very salient points made - what if the caveats behind activities doesn’t change? I’m not sure a “thanks for joining, but you can’t do this, this and this until you’re X age” is any different (in real terms) to stopping people joining until 13.3 as we do at the present??
Que???
How about remove the rule from the regs?
I have to say that the 14YO rule for L98 has always seemed somewhat arbitrary.
If nothing else, it’s actually much easier to hold in the aim than a No 8. I’d say if you can cock the thing three times in a row un-assisted, then you’re strong enough to fire it.
Interesting thread - I have responded to the survey and I am not in favour of lowering the age limit. I think that is mainly because I am incredibly sceptical that it will be properly thought through and the regulations/insurance cover changed to reflect the new reality quickly enough.
As others have already said, if we are going to do this, there needs to actually be some incentive to join at the age they are proposing. Its all very well going into Year 8 groups to recruit and telling them ‘join the air cadets, its great, you can do xyz - but oh by the way, you will have to wait at least a year before you can do most of it’ - I think this will just put new joiners off.
However, if they can sort out all of the age restrictions out and properly review/amend the insurance cover for the activities to ensure that cadets aren’t waiting a long time to fly/glide/shoot etc, then it might work.
Personally, I have reservations about the maturity of a 12 year old child compared to a 13 year old teenager. I am a leader of young people which in my head means ‘teenager’ not ‘child’ - what I am getting at here is that I am not a child minder. I am concerned that even younger children will not be sufficiently mature to cope with a disciplined, structured environment in which we operate.
In short, I am not convinced. I am not rubbishing the idea because it is new and different, I just lack faith that this will be implemented properly by the Ivory Towers coupled with my personal point of view about child care as opposed to ‘youth’.
In reply to those of you complaining that you didn’t get an official say in it, I can only assume that it is to do with trying to make sure everyone gets one vote and doesn’t skew the survey. Doesn’t explain why those with an individual account like adj or trg didn’t get to vite though…
There a re a couple of salient points about this survey that have been raised within this thread all for good reasons.
OC Sqns Only
Looking at the CAC’s Twitter feed this will be discussed at the ACO Conference with the Wing Commanders based on the feedback from OC Sqns, and WSOs are advised to feed into OC Wgs. A good OC would gauge opinion of their squadron staff about this potential change, and feed this into their response, this reduces the amount of returns but should still gain opinion of those of us on the ground.
Reducing Age Limit to 'Year 8’
At present our cadets can join from of the age of 13, which they turn during this fabled ‘Year 8’, the key problem we have with the current system is friendship groups, who want to join together but do not meet the age requirements. This would also benefit units who are supported in recruiting by schools, as anyone in the year group would be able to join, making a presentation to the year group 100% relevant. It would also be of benefit to units that run an intake system.
Activity Limits
This is the key issue as the joining change will result in us having 12 yr old members, given that several core activities currently have limits of 13.3 to enable basic training to be undertaken prior to cdts being out and about. Given there is actually no ‘insurance’ per se, it’s the MOD indemnity fund that will pay out, this shouldn’t be an issue, the age limits would need to be readdressed to match the new joining age and to allow for these newer cadets to remain engaged.
The L98A2 would not change AFAIK this is legal and relates to the Firearms Act???
Overseas camps are currently 15, which is fine, need something to maintain the older cadets, and allows them time to get on a UK camp, given we are averaging a camp every 3 years apparently!!
[quote=“MattB” post=15514]I have to say that the 14YO rule for L98 has always seemed somewhat arbitrary.
If nothing else, it’s actually much easier to hold in the aim than a No 8. I’d say if you can cock the thing three times in a row un-assisted, then you’re strong enough to fire it.[/quote]
Doesnt the OC sign off include something about being “physically and mentally mature enough to handle the weapon” - I paraphrase of course, but its the open claus which could keep the tiny cadet who isnt able to control the weapon from passing their training (not withstanding if they cant handle the weapon safely they shouldnt pass a WHT, but thats another matter).
My concern like Xab’s is maturity. I know its only 6-9 months of so a young person’s life, but kids change a lot in their teens, and those 6-9 months could make the difference between seeing the cadet as a child and seeing them as an adult.
The other concern I’ve got is this - if the average length of service of a cadet is circa 18 months, they join at 12 or so, and are out before they’re 14. Too young to fire the L98, too young for overseas camps, etc. All this propsal is likely to do is shift the joining age, cause a temporary blip in membership that will have evaporated by 18 months - 2 years post implementation.
It won’t solve the problem of availability of decent camp places (out of shoot term time - pay heed HQAC!!!) and other opportunities (flying/gliding comes to mind) which could serve to keep cadets involved longer.
WRT firearms I didn’t think there was an age restriction on actual shooting within the law, just weapon ownership or holding of FAC categories.
I would have thought the age restrictions in the Corps are something that only applies to the Corps and not even the general military.
[quote=“Perry Mason” post=15525]Doesnt the OC sign off include something about being “physically and mentally mature enough to handle the weapon”[/quote]Possibly, but there are plenty of OCs who’ll sign anyone off for anything so that doesn’t really help - and that’s if the OC is actually a shooter anyway!
A specific test to prove whether or not the cadet was capable of handling the rifle might be handy.
There is one… Its called a Weapons Handling Test!
I have in the past (and will continue to) RTU cadets who turn up to my training weekends who are incabale of handling the L98A2.
Anyway thats off topic. When I’ve got more time I’ll be back to comment about the proposals (in short I agree with them).
Why are people so strung up about 13 like is some magical point in your life. The only thing is you become a teenager, and this doesn’t instantly bestow you with greater maturity as anyone with children will attest.
I personally feel that the changes in many youngsters are happening earlier as the societal/peer pressure to ‘grow up’ increases. They are forced to be more “mature” and many are unable to cope with this.
Physical ‘maturity’ is purely genetic.
I say again as no-one has answered - what benefits does this actually bring to the organisation?
I’m sure we’d all agree that change for the sake of it is pointless, so let’s look at it. The document from HQAC was wooly at best at looking at positives, so I’d be keen to hear what others think.
Nope. Cadets have always been exempt from this rule either by the original form of the act or in its current form, amended by the Armed Forces Act 1996.
Thought I should upload the document from HQAC. I’ve copied it below:
[quote=“The Document HQAC sent out”]
AIR CADET ENTRY AGE – DISCUSSION PAPER
Background
Discussion
Currently a young person can join the ATC after their 13th birthday and before their 17th birthday. Most join soon after their birthday or within their 13th year. The numbers joining at 14-16 fall off very rapidly. Whilst the process and timing for bringing new cadets into an ATC sqn are not mandated and vary from sqn to sqn, most small sqns take on new cadets as they apply whilst larger sqns tend to have intakes at set dates in the year. This aids sqn organisation and minimises the task of training new cadets. Larger sqns who may recruit 20 new cadets each year will take them on in groups and deliver training to groups. Small sqns who may only get 2 or 3 new cadets in a year will normally take and train new cadets as they apply.
The regulations for cadet joining age for all CCF units are in JSP 313 Para 3.2.7. For CCF units, children can join when they enter Year 8, although some head teachers vary joining age to suit their school. Similarly, for the Army Cadet Force (ACF) children become eligible to join when they enter Year 8. The Sea Cadet Corps take Junior Cadets from age 10.
The majority of children form most of their strong friendships with the children in their school year group. By setting the cadet joining age at 13 it spreads the date that this group of peers can join the ATC throughout the year. Thus, if a large ATC sqn take in new cadets in November, only 25% of the Year 8 peer group will be 13 and eligible to join at that time. If the cadet joining age is set to the start of Year 8, all the Year 8 cohort become eligible at the same time, normally the first Monday in September. They can join together with their friends. Additionally, visits to schools to recruit cadets will become more effective as all children in a Year 8 audience will be eligible for recruitment.
With a cadet joining age of 13, all children become eligible to join at 13, thus the average minimum joining age is 13. If the joining age is set at the start of school year 8 the children’s ages at that time vary from 12 years and 1 day to 13 years minus 1 day. Thus the average minimum joining age would be 12 years 6 months, a 6 month reduction.
Advantages
a. Each year, all the children in that year become eligible to join the ATC on the same day (1st Monday in Sept).
b. Children can join together with their peers in their school year.
c. There is potential for increased recruitment; children can join with their peers. Additionally, there is anecdotal evidence that some Year 8 children, reluctant to wait until they are 13 are joining the ACF at the start of Year 8 in preference to waiting to join the ATC.
d. More effective and better targeted recruitment visits to schools; talks to Year 8 classes target all children able to join.
e. The change brings the ATC inline with the CCF and ACF.
f. The planning and timing of ATC Sqn training programmes for new cadets is simplified.
Disadvantages
a. It would reduce the average minimum joining age by 6 months to 12 years 6 months.
b. It would reduce the absolute minimum joining age by 12 months to age 12 ( if a year 8 pupil with a birthday in late Aug was recruited in early Sept). Sqn staff would have responsibility for younger cadets.
c. There may be greater difficulty in providing smaller uniforms for younger and consequently smaller cadets.
d. There would be a need to realign cadet training syllabus and other activities to reflect new joining age[/quote]