Promotion to Flt Lt

That is a fair point, but I was thinking more of the SNCO’s who have expressed an interest in running a sqn, or have found themselves in charge, and find they like it.

There isn’t really any incentive to apply for a commision - A WO(ATC), with 15 years service who has been appointed OIC, and who finds that they actually quite like the challenges of command/has been asked by their WSO to become OC, will lose £10 a day allowances for 2 years, have to attend OASC and 2 week long courses at Cranwell, all to do the same job, with the same stress.

If the system allowed you to remain on WO rates of pay, pending promotion to Flying Officer, and remove the need to attend OASC, and the Junior Officers course, then the process would be a lot more attractive.

Probably not something they have considered for the new system and will need a look and a tweak. (I hope)

Under the old system (until 1st September) if you are a WO (ATC) in Command you would do your Squadron Comamnders Course first, then once you are commissioned you would do OIC and upon graduation go straight to Flt Lt.

Also if you are an FS (ATC) in command in most Wings they would bump you to WO (ATC) even if you are outside the zone once you have done SCC.

I know a few who went WO to Plt Off and were kept on the same rate.

How many actually want to command a squadron?
If people wanted to command a squadron then there would be an awful lot more officers around and vacant seats taken quickly. Most people end up running a squadron as no one else wants to and that’s when the rot starts. We went without for several months, despite there being at least 3 eligible within easy driving distance. When we got one, they didn’t last long.
I wanted to run a squadron (didn’t forsee the things that would lead me to resigning my commission) as I’d been all but doing it on and off as a WO and fancied more of it, but that was 20 years ago. Don’t think I’d be quite so inclined today.

Doh! That will teach me to post first without checking my facts!

That isn’t our model, it is just how things end up. We are generally short of staff, officers included. All detachments are supposed to be run by an officer, who should be a 2Lt or Lt. A particularly large detachment can warrant a Captain in charge but that would be quite rare. What happens in practice is that most detachments are run by SNCOs purely because there aren’t enough officers to run them. A Lt may soon find themselves snapped up for a company role because again there aren’t enough officers, but such moves aren’t (read “shouldn’t be”) compulsory.

Then you get a detachment like mine where I run it as a Lt and have a 2Lt as my 2IC. The system isn’t exactly perfect!

I think retention is a big problem. Lots of staff seem to join, but many don’t make it to their AIC, and those that do sometimes get pissed off with existing members of staff and transfer out.

Certainly within my sector 7 out of 8 Squadrons are run by officers, the one run by a WO he would have gone for a commission but our old groupies views on age would have excluded him but under the new regime he is currently in the process of getting commissioned.

Of the remaining 7:

One failed to make CWO under the old system so timed out at 20 and was commissioned straight away in another region :roll_eyes:

One was commissioned straight from CWO into command as an Off Cdt as thats what he wanted.

3 were commissioned young and spent on average 12 months as a pilot officer before taking command, all replaced older officers who groomed them as replacements and knew it was coming.

1 was a WO who bit the bullet when his boss left as he didn’t want an outsider, then resigned but has come back after his replacement left for family reasons.

I was an SNCO as we were all pushed that way at one point (the wing wasn’t preparing candidates properly and rather than address that pushed everyone SNCO, they only commissioned 1 person in a 12 month period). I did my SSIC realised I was in the wrong place and asked for commissioning paperwork on my first night back.

My point is that no one went for a commission with the expectation of being a Squadron Officer, indeed the only person who spent time in that role was me, I managed a whole 2 years as a Fg Off before being offered command and I would never go back. It’s the best job in the organisation and I don’t understand why any officer wouldn’t want it.

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You seem to have been quite lucky. Life though has a nasty habit of biting you when you least expect it and makes you reconsider and re-evaluate views and opinions. Until a few years ago I thought exactly the same, ie why wouldn’t an officer want to take a command. Now I have an understanding why they might not.

The trend has been one of putting and in some instances forcing ill-prepared (as I’ve mentioned including mentally and psychologically) people into the role, which does them or the sqns they take over no good whatsoever.

I do feel we need to move away from the ‘we must have an officer running a sqn’ mentality on the sole preconception that just by being an officer makes you better than everyone else. Other than following a military model why do we have to have an officer running an ATC sqn? In most places (including the full-time military) there is ‘career development and progression’ opportunities and people move into more senior jobs (hopefully) on the basis they are the best person. This used to happen to a large extent in the ATC, but what you see increasing in the ATC (especially in the last 10 or so years) is not necessarily the best person, just someone with a rank who’ve passed a couple of courses and Wing has pressured into running sqns. You should have to do at least 1½ tours (regardless of background) done all the major roles on a sqn, been on camps as adj or TO to gain the experience of working with different people in an ‘alien environment’ before even being considered for a sqn command. Maybe we should even consider forcing time as a CI and SNCO to gain experience in other ways, and allow individuals to decide whether or not they want to commission (not because they are the Wing’s blue eyed wunderkind) and this may then mean they are better prepared within themselves as when they get a command, they will have accrued a broader experience of the Corps and potentially make them better COs. This could be written into a commissioned officer’s TCOS with timescales and that they would be expected to take command for a determined period at some point. Making sqn cdr a maximum time in post could also be a consideration, as that let’s people know what they are in for.

On the two sqns I ran I knew I was only the OC by virtue of the bit of material on my shoulder and not because I was better or none of the other staff could do it. I experienced this as a WO running a sqn when the OC was away on business.

As for why officers don’t want to take a command, has anyone asked them? I don’t feel people take a commission and don’t want to run a sqn, I feel that they take a commission and then find that life gets in the way, maybe they should resign, which may then alert the CoC to what actually goes on, outside their gold plated existence. The modern OC role is from what I’ve observed since standing down is that is has become much too much like a full-time job that you have to balance with a real full-time job. You cannot give equal priority to them. What do you prioritise the one that pays the bills or the one that is unpaid and in your spare time? You only have to listen to some of the comments our OC makes to see that they struggle to balance them out and spend time at work doing ATC things, which could be used more productively. I’ve also got a sense that the adj feels pressurised to do similar.

As someone who is quite old when it comes to commission could you say what you think of the following situation;

If an officer was commissioned pre Laser review, back in the dark ages when there was no such thing as Officer Cadets and OASC, around 2003 for example, and this officer did OIC and followed this up with OSC (the old course pre Sqn Commanders Course) in due time when already running a Squadron. This officer then stood down from running a squadron, because of family commitments and maintained the rank of Flt Lt as they had already been commissioned over 10 years (time served rank). This officer then takes a small period of time NEP, on their return the Wing Commander would like to demote them to Fg Off.

The officer has now been volunteering as a commissioned officer for over 12 years (even taking into account the time NEP).