GHE2 - the point is some of the people in long standing roles (OC Sqn, Wing, etc) are there simply because there is no mechanism to move people onward and upwards, or aside.
The same people are doing the same things because it suits them (for a variety of positive and not so positive reasons) and there is no new blood coming through. OC and Deputy OC Wings doing 8+ years in the same post is not uncommon. Wing HQ Officers doing similar is also not uncommon, so where is the progression? Therefore you get some OC Sqn’s doing similar, so evidently no opportunites (or seemingly so) for the new blood coming in.
This is not to say that the services and experience provided by people is no longer valid because they have been around a long time, but conversely there shouldn’t be the assumption that because they have been around a long time that they are still valid!
At OASC they ask you what your aspirations are for your Commission and what you want from the Organisation (without the need for self-flagellation because yes it is alright to want something out of service) - answering to anything above Sqn Ldr is sheer fantasy unless you can outwait those in the queue. We don’t seem to have a meritocracy, but instead a system where those who grind away for the longest have the only chance to reach the top. In theory a 21 year old Officer with the right attributes should be able to get to Group Captain VR(T), or Wing Commander by the end of their service. As things stand the odds are heavily stacked against even the very best candidates - which cannot be right.
Limiting the number of tours (definitely back to back) in certain posts would be a start, with the caveat that If there is no new suitable candadate coming through the system, then the post holder could continue.
[quote=“noah claypole” post=21655] In theory a 21 year old Officer with the right attributes should be able to get to Group Captain VR(T), or Wing Commander by the end of their service. As things stand the odds are heavily stacked against even the very best candidates - which cannot be right.
.[/quote]
They do now but it does take a long time and as a 45 year old I have see 6 wing commanders in my wing. But to you as a 21 year old who as at most only ever known two Wg Cdrs you need to realise it does take a like time to become a Wg Cdr. Commission at 21 OC sqn by 30-35 wing staff 35-45 and finally Wg Cdr at 50 and retirement at 55, that was the ideal ATC career path in the past. Now it seems commission at 21 OC by 22 and burnout by 25.
[quote=“the silverback” post=21663][quote=“noah claypole” post=21655] In theory a 21 year old Officer with the right attributes should be able to get to Group Captain VR(T), or Wing Commander by the end of their service. As things stand the odds are heavily stacked against even the very best candidates - which cannot be right.
.[/quote]
They do now but it does take a long time and as a 45 year old I have see 6 wing commanders in my wing. But to you as a 21 year old who as at most only ever known two Wg Cdrs you need to realise it does take a like time to become a Wg Cdr. Commission at 21 OC sqn by 30-35 wing staff 35-45 and finally Wg Cdr at 50 and retirement at 55, that was the ideal ATC career path in the past. Now it seems commission at 21 OC by 22 and burnout by 25.[/quote]
Just to clarify, I’ve been around a while and went through OASC as one of the upper, upper middle end of the age spectrum.
In my time I’ve seen a lot of people hang around. Each Wing will naturally be different of course, maybe our Wing is the exception, but I don’t think it is.
[quote=“noah claypole” post=21689][quote=“the silverback” post=21663][quote=“noah claypole” post=21655] In theory a 21 year old Officer with the right attributes should be able to get to Group Captain VR(T), or Wing Commander by the end of their service. As things stand the odds are heavily stacked against even the very best candidates - which cannot be right.
.[/quote]
They do now but it does take a long time and as a 45 year old I have see 6 wing commanders in my wing. But to you as a 21 year old who as at most only ever known two Wg Cdrs you need to realise it does take a like time to become a Wg Cdr. Commission at 21 OC sqn by 30-35 wing staff 35-45 and finally Wg Cdr at 50 and retirement at 55, that was the ideal ATC career path in the past. Now it seems commission at 21 OC by 22 and burnout by 25.[/quote]
Just to clarify, I’ve been around a while and went through OASC as one of the upper, upper middle end of the age spectrum.
In my time I’ve seen a lot of people hang around. Each Wing will naturally be different of course, maybe our Wing is the exception, but I don’t think it is.[/quote]
In the past 55 was the retirement age. There may have been and extension of two on that. But now (in my wing at least) staff are being extended for as long as they want. Hence causing stagnation within the ranks.
I think you might have the rose-tinted specs on there, SB. There were plenty of extensions well beyond 55 as far back as I can remember and it’s definitely not a recent phenomenon in our wing. I don’t really see any stagnation in our wing. What I do see is a severe lack of new officers coming up.
We need to have a different organisation if we are to envoke any sort of mechanism to move people around in an organisation where people freely give their time where it suits them best not the organisation’s. There is no incentive to travel after a day at work any further than you want to, for one the 6 miles return lost each trip for HTD and secondly it’s the general hassle. For a spell I was travelling 16 each way (yes I know there are people who do more) and it was a pain, especially at the weekends. So my current 5 miles each way is more than enough and means I am able to support things and do things and being the OC if anything needs attention I can deal with it.
As for moving people on / off Wing Staff willy nilly, is not a sensible move. As I said people give their time freely in the geographic location that suits them. I’ve seen numerous people do a spell as Sqn Cdr then go onto Wing Staff and many are off as soon as they possibly can be because it’s a different sort of volunteering and I’ve seen people take Wing roles essentially because it suits them, mainly as their job precludes them attending A squadron. If people are happy then they are likely to be more committed.
Picking up on GOMs comment about not seeing much new blood in terms of Officers, again the question is, what is the personal incentive for doing it? As someone who has been in uniform in the ATC as staff for 24 years, having my time over I’m not sure I would do it again, purely because they seem to want more out of you with less in return.
As for the 21 year old newbie staff of any flavour, (but more so those in uniform) the organisation needs to protect and nurture them AND respect the fact that between 20 and 30 they will most likely be sorting out a lot of personal things and don’t need the aggravation. Yes I am fully aware that some take to it like a duck to water, but it is those who don’t but due to inexperience fail to cope. In the instance of Officers throw them into a command position too soon, ie before they are 30 and there is every chance they will be out of the organisation. I have watchhed too many (and I’m going back to the mid 80s) 23-30 year olds get given the responsibility of command that they were not prepared for mentally, pyschologically or with the life skills and left the organisation.
You need policies, procedures etc that protect and encourage people and make them feel as what they are doing is worthwhile. I don’t personally see how some of the notions in this document do that.
I find thre reference to former (retired) Air Officers at AEFs happlily doing AEF duties as a Fg Off, an interesting one. I imagine they get paid for flying, get their pensions commensurate with their former rank and still hold that rank in all other respects, I very much doubt they go to dining events etc in/out of uniform as a Fg Off. So to say they’ve accepted a reduction in rank is a little disingenuous and probably misleading.
If this policy is to be able to work, then there needs to be an increase in people taking a uniform role especially officers. Looking the figures in our Wing there is taking the Wing Staff and NEP out of the equation, an average of 2 officers per sqn. This isn’t enough to play chess.
I think before they start looking at CFAV HQAC need to look inwards and start the process there. In percentage terms I feel there are more heads with the potential to roll.
The difficulty relates to the ACO being a voluntary organisation rather than a full-paid civilian or Service career.
In a civilian job, you can be “incentivised” by salary increases, promotions, enhanced responsibility for major projects or to be measured (& rewarded) by achieving KPIs, etc. Some of these factors are broadly comparable to a Service career - but of course, less options to move to a different career path.
The good thing is that ground-force personnel in the ACO are volunteers, so are hopefully motivated from the outset. However, this motivation has to be sustained as the normal hand-cuffs (salary, proximity to pension point, etc) are not valid for this “career” path. The best thing I can compare ACO duties is to what used to be called “secondary duties” in the Services - but with a much higher workload & variable reward (other than seeing cadets progress & enjoy themselves, that is always worthwhile!).