I don’t think organisations actually realise what they potentially unleash with this sort of thing. They think they are being forward thinking with anti-discriminatory rules but they can open a can of worms which means enforcing the rules differently, which gets them in the news, as people push the rules. In the real world people don’t give a monkey’s but in the military bubble not so ‘open’.
The MoD has probably been forced to act against it’s traditional rules to comply with their “diversity agenda”. No point in letting all and sundry join or stay in if they change during their time in, and then have rules that don’t appease them.
The way to go is coveralls with t-shirts or similar for all, all the same job jobbed. Much cheaper and easier dress regs. Dress regs would be no more than 2 or 3 pages.
The one I remember was the boy who wore a skirt to school as they allowed girls to wear trousers and as I recall the school didn’t react well. But I made him right. Schools also seem get themselves in a knot with boys having really short hair as the military does with them having “long” hair.
So out of interest who would you like to allow in the corps? Boys only? Boys and girls but only the heterosexual ones? Only those whose gender matches with their biological sex?
And at what point of transition would you propose to kick people out?
I remember this, I think the lads point was that the ladies had a version of summer dress and boys were not allowed to wear shorts - he and his friends didn’t want to wear skirts long term, they were just pointing out that the girls had a comfortable option for summer whereas the boys didn’t.
Honestly is this all not just a storm in a teacup? We have tens of thousands of people in the RAFAC, at any one time we are likely to only have a handful where this will be an issue.
So on those occasions why don’t we just have a straightforward and sensible conversation with them asking how they would like to wear the uniform - and instead of getting excited about things as it’s not in the book - we just let it go and let them get on with it?
Other cadets couldn’t care less, and if the staff do then that says more about them than anything else.
This is a very limited and exceptional circumstance. The world isn’t going to burn because of it.
I’m with you on this one, it is the same with Army (and Navy) uniform. Different body types will require a different fit/cut, but the overall style should be the same!
Coveralls are the ultimate in androgyny which is where is tends to lead if you want to go down the route that appeals to all comers in terms of 'gender identity" and avoid conflicts of any kind. Then there are the other bits like shoes, hair and as mentioned jewellery. It really needs to be as simple as possible with no or very simple variants, which even a casual glance at the regs means it wouldn’t be possible, should be but wouldn’t and I bet people would have to get permission, signed off by several people to dress differently, rather than just do it. It should be as simple changing your dietary regime.
What amuses me is that a walk around any town or military establishment and you see women wearing dresses and trousers (sometimes together) along with other unisex clothing and some look more like men than men, don’t see many men wearing dresses or skirts as every day wear. So the idea for women at least the notion of dressing as the opposite sex, is well established and generally accepted in society.
Trousers have not been “male” clothing for a long time - since at least the first millennium in many cultures, being formally introduced to the (for want of a better term) modern western world in the mid 19th century, becoming considered a necessity for women during periods of the early-mid 20th century, and becoming increasingly common in women’s general fashion since the 70s. There’s no reason for women in trousers to be “amusing”.
I give you:
We already have a range of clothing options that should suit the majority of needs - and the thread’s original announcement and hints at future releases of AP1358C give us the flexibility to work between the lines where needed.
There’s no need for any drastic, reactionary measures. Removing all choice, freedom, and self-determination is the complete opposite of what we’re about and works against our agenda of building esteem and pride, and personal development.
When it comes to hair, jewellery etc, we should make it so that anyone can adhere to either set of regs, where hair if it’s short, adheres to ‘male’ dress regs, if it’s being grown out or is long, should adhere to what is currently ‘female’ regs, everyone should be allowed to wear a wedding ring, a pair of plain studs and that should be it, in terms of hats, when it comes to cadets, we only wear berets anyways (apart from those allowed to wear No.1s in which case it should again be whatever is comfortable for the person) so in all honesty there is no issue there.
We’re a youth organisation at the end of the day and as much as we are also defined by the military and wearing of uniform etc, we’re here to let teens enjoy themselves and experience things they’d never get the chance to normally, we let in cadets with medical issues who would never be able to get into the actual military and give then so many life experiences and can make great friends, why should a current lack of gender neutral uniform regs stop trans cadets from doing the same? We allow mismatches anyways, and allow relaxing of the rules for some cadets anyways(even though we maybe shouldn’t in some cases) so why do trans cadets and a lack of representation in dress regs pose such an issue? Do whatever makes them feel comfortable and happy and just let them enjoy themselves, and the experiences they can get.
Exactly. Often we don’t have parade shoes in stock - so suggest cadets wear polished school shoes or polish up their black boots - if we’ve been able to issue them a pair…
Not all cadets are able to get their hands on an extra pair of shoes or boots so anything not issued we have to have a degree of discretion.
@Giminion OK where did I say women wearing trousers is amusing?
The amusing thing is that women wear effectively whatever clothes they fancy and have done for donkey’s, whereas men in general conform to the norm of trouser style legwear.
The idea of making it so that the dress regs allow people to wear whatever they like, just opens up a level of complication in terms of addressing the individual without causing upset. But to do anything without a questioning element or requiring permission, would be step too far for those who ponder dress regs, as it would mean losing control and not needing them.
We have to add in the teenager aspect, who can and do go off at the slightest thing at the best of times, leaving you wondering what has happened and this is who we have in spades. Speaking as the dad of 2 daughters and a son, the teens were interesting, especially the girls.
As for androgyny just walking around and watching TV, films etc, there are times you do a double take. One of the boys at our kids primary school had a mum who looked and dressed like a man more than any of the men in the village. Even my wife who took them to and fro each day wasn’t sure for a few weeks, as she had a very male physique.
