Stare at the wall?
Depends if the driver is part of that 1:10, if not heâs talking out of his hoop.
You should have enough staff on duty that this isnât an issue, although with the current changes to VA that may well create a situation where nok E has any off duty time at all. (As a Camp Com Iâve always limited myself to 2 cans anyway, but everyone else who is off duty is off duty.)
1 Like
he (i) was - it was me and one other with a SOV full of cadets. 15 Cadets: 2 Staff. but suggested that I needed a third Staff member as 1 of the Staff was the driver
In which case Iâd argue he was correct. If you are part of the supervisory ratio then you are âon dutyâ (âworkâ in MT-speak) regardless of the light-touch nature of the supervision.
3 Likes
I donât entirely disagree with that, if you are part of the 1:10 you arenât resting.
1 Like
but i was sat, on the grass, watching the air show. the Cadets, dispersed in their groups âno smaller than 3â were not under supervision.
if the 
the fan then yes things would develop, but that wouldnât change the situation if there were three staff if the driver cannot count towards the 1:10 ratio as any incident would take at least 1 CFAV out of the equation leaving the ratios out of kilter whether there was 2 + a driver or 1+driver
If a Cadet needed to go to hospital then they would need two staff to escort them, then the remaining staff member (on their own now) would now leave a ratio of 14:1âŚso you would need 4 staff in total to start with. But then you wouldnât have a driver with sufficient rest for the RTU or transit to/from hospital.
May just as well take a minibus full of staff and use the photos taken for Air Rec back in the zero-risk environment of the Sqn HQ. You can then stop off at the pub on the way home (with a designated driver or course!).
But, if you did the CACE then you wonât be able to get VA, claim fuel or even have an MT bus in the first place so the activity had/will never happen.
May just as well start collecting stamps or join the Air Scouts.
1 Like
precisely my point. his argument was for one more staff, but it made no difference as weâd need two additional to account for the worse case
only if you claim it - the Acct4 is a Squadron issue, if they canât afford it the OC can tell me not to bother.
and as for VA, it was a day at an airshow, i was going along anyway, so it didnât matter if i went with a bus full of cadets in an SOV claiming VA or on my own with all the associated costs, i was going to attend anyway.
have you considered the paper cuts?
The Armed Forces (Alcohol Limits for Prescribed Safety-Critical Duties) Regulations 2013 detail what those in the real RAF have to abide by; 35mg for a safety critical role, as low as 5mg if a regulation 5 (such as pilot, aircraft passenger, Driver or in possession/supervision of firearm).
SooooâŚit could be argued by the CoC that RAFAC are to abide by the same rules (we canât pick and choose, especially if using RAF/MOD equipment).
5mg is VERY low but could anyone argue that driving, shooting and being a passenger in an aircraft or Glider pilot is worth a more relaxed limit!? Hence saying activities are Dry is easier and more accountable on the CoC than saying âwith moderationâ or âa few is okâ.
The press would jump all over it if an incident were to happen and it be found anyone involved was under any level of alcohol, let alone any criminal implications. You could be prosecuted for Driving under the Influence even if you blew under 35mg if it is believed alcohol was a contributing factor, harsh but if you are driving sixteen cadets around in a minibus, I would say that is fair!?
Typically, a person having 2-3 pints the night before would probably blow about 12mg at 07:00 the following morning and be below 5mg about 09:00.
Wasnât there sonr instruction that said CFAVs couldnât drink 12 hours before âon dutyâ?
So abiding by the rules your example wouldnât happen unless on a serious bender to still have trace alcohol in the system
The topic here constantly argues about what is classed as âon dutyâ. I agree with the 12 hours rule, but people bang on about is what they do in the evening provided there are duty staff to cover that.
An example of weekend away, 3-4 beers in the Mess on the Saturday night and you go on the Range or drive the bus in the morning.
ThereforeâŚnot fit for dutyâŚregardless of if they are on or off duty in the mess for the night.
Thatâs a matter for the individual, if I have 3 or 4 beers tonight Iâll blow zero tomorrow morning. The average person will metabolise 1 unit per hour, so assuming you arenât drinking Super Tennantâs 6-8 hours for 3-4 pints.
3 Likes
The âmatter for the individualâ is what causes all the debate and ultimatly leads to the rules being made.
Your view, my view, Commandants view, etc etc. The Police and CPS donât care about personal opinions, and neither would the parents when it goes wrong, and their child is injured or worse.
Being employed is a Safety Critical industry, I often see the âI only had 2-3 pints last nightâ and they blow over 5mg but under 35mg so they can legally drive in. The railway for example has a 12mg limit, so you can legally drive to work but fail a test and get sacked.
To be civilian aircrew which includes pilots and cabin crew itâs 9mg.
Itâs âfailure to trust adults to be adultsâ that leads to rules like this.
As a grown up I donât need to be told that I should be fit for duty the next day, in the same way that I donât need my boss in my actual job to tell me that I need to be sober to come to work.
5 Likes
For me, while I have no sympathy for anyone who claims they canât relax and chill out without a beer - I think they ought to have a chat with their GP - the issue has got to be one of practicality:
Everything is short staffed. Everything runs on the very thinnest of margins with absolutely no slack when stuff goes breasts skyward.
Itâs 3am, Member of staff has a dose of the Brown Flux, a cadet has to be taken to hospital, and your two âspareâ MoS had 3 pints at 9pm - where are your ratios?
I have never been on a cadet camp where something that wasnât in the plan hasnât happened.
If youâve got enough staff to cope with four, five, six things going wrong at the same time then fine - crack on. But in the current and future ACO where thereâs barely room for one thing going wrong? No chance.
3 Likes
Ultimately if that always been the case for you thatâs a failure in planning, Iâve always run at least 2 more duty staff than my ratios require specifically so that I do have enough staff to deal with an incident and to maintain business as usual for the rest of the Cadets.
Ultimately if CACE means I canât run things in a safe way with sufficient staff to deal with contingencies I just wonât run them.
The issue with this policy for me isnât that we donât have enough staff to deal with what comes up, itâs demonstrating that we as Commanders arenât trusted by the Organisation to make that sort of decision for ourselves.
Ultimately if we have our 1:10 ratio overnight there is nothing to say that everyone else has to stay on camp, we can go home if we want to. I have done more than once on residential courses.
Yeah⌠No.
Weâd just charge Careless or Dangerous driving if the driving fell below the requisite standard. But the limits for excess alcohol are fixed by law.
3 Likes
Reading through this thread, Iâm completely at a loss as to why 10% of uniformed staff are leaving year on year!
2 Likes
And probably right for not trusting us - are there people who can be trusted, absolutely and on the whole itâs probably the majority of us. However, youâd be hard pressed to find staff members who donât have a story, an experience, a frustration of dealing with staff whoâve had one two many. That the briefings to remind people to drink to their limits.
Iâve had many many nights where I feel pressured to drink, that saying I donât drink isnât just enough I end up having to say I canât for medical reasons (which is true but I shouldnât have to say it) - and some of the worst pressures is from the Senior Staff.
2 Likes