I enjoy the job, which is the that of providing opportunities for cadets.
Is it an actual job?
There are a couple of relevant meanings of the word.
Insofar that it is a task/position I am assigned to and expected to perform, then yes; especially as the various activities it involves tend to have deadlines and expectations imposed upon them which makes it even more like my day job.
Despite sometimes feeling like it, it isn’t something which I am actually employed to do though.
Hmmmm, I can see where you’re coming from but it falls more into the pastime/hobby/interest catagory IMHO as opposed to job. Different strokes for different folks…
This phrase makes me cringe… I’m here because I enjoy it!
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Here, here.
Everytime I hear someone say “I only do it for the cadets” I wonder whether they actually mean it, or if they’re one of the (I suspect majority) who spout it off because it’s almost expected.
I’m sure there are some who genuinely are that kind of selfless volunteer who gives up their time even if they don’t enjoy doing so, but I’d be surprised if it’s anywhere near as many as make out.
God forbid one should appear to be in the organisation for their own enjoyment.
It does seem too common that if you purport to have any sort of personal interest or enjoyment you’re accused of being “in it for the wrong reasons”.
That’s a poor and cynical attitude. Of course we all enjoy being staff but I enjoy it because I can give something back to the organisation that gave me so much. Maybe I’ve not been in uniform long enough to have my opinion of why I’m here and who I’m here for diluted by years of paperwork and politics. I don’t think your own personal enjoyment should come from being able to say “Ooh look I’ve got a crown above my three stripes now!!” Those days ended when I hit 20. Being in the organisation for the rank satisfaction is for cadets. The enjoyment of staff should come from being able to work with today’s youth to keep them on the straight and narrow.
I am a Sgt (ATC) because that’s the rank I need to hold to give my Squadron what it needs. If they needed an Adj then I’d have probably went down the commission route. Point is I’m not here to Walt about pretending I’m something I’m not. It makes no difference to me if I am a Sgt or a Cpl or which mess I eat in or stay in at camps. So long as I can provide the training and guidance that our cadets need then I’m a happy bunny. If you need to stay in the Senior Ranks mess to feel a sense of purpose then that makes me sad. I was expecting some negativity about the JNCO thing… Certainly wasn’t expecting it for saying I’m not here for the tapes on my shoulder. If I was then I would’ve joined the regulars.
While it is not forbidden for people to gain some level of enjoyment or gratification from the experience and while the actual motives in being involved will have varying levels of altruism attached, it is very important that all staff in the ACO remember this:
[color=#000088]You Are Here For The Benefit Of The Cadets[/color]
Regardless of how much personal enjoyment you may happen to get out of the work you do here, if that work is not in some way benefiting the cadets then I question whether or not it is a valid use of resources.
There is also plenty of work in this organisation which is tedious, laborious, messy and which can be said to elicit no enjoyment whatsoever, yet is still serves the end goal. Staff will do this work out of a sense of duty, responsibility and altruism. The net effect over time may be some personal gain but I’d be wary of anybody picking and choosing only the gucci bits and missing the big picture.
It’s not cynical it’s the truth. There are those who will throw around accusations of being “in for the wrong reasons” at anyone who says “I’m here because I enjoy it”.
I’m not giving you negativity for not being bothered by the tapes on your shoulders, I think you’ve misunderstood me.
Further back in the thread I’ve mentioned that I myself haven’t applied for the promotion to WO that I was entitled to a year ago because I disagree with the criteria. Hardly the actions of someone who’s
Whatever enjoyment I get from being part of the ATC is my own.
I turn out, run the squadron, instruct on wing courses, do the paperwork, go in on weekends as required to clean the place up…same as everyone else. The cadets benefit from the time that (nearly) all of us put in.
I’m simply agreeing with Perry that the clichéd phrase “only for the cadets” makes me cringe a little because I hear it too often and in most occasions I’m sure it’s not technically true.
How many of us really ONLY do it for the cadets? I’d be interested to know how many people find themselves thinking “God, I hate all this ATC rubbish! Two evenings a week, weekends, camps, courses…wish I weren’t bothering! Still I’m doing it for the cadets!”
I’m certainly not going to say that I only do it for the cadets, as though I’m some sort of sefless martyr - because it would be a lie (I’m not suggesting any negativity towards you here either).
I do it because I enjoy it. If I ever stop enjoying being part of the organision I’ll be off.
Personally, if a member of staff does get what we might consider to be ‘an unjustified level of satisfaction’ from their promotion…So long as they don’t act like an idiot, are capable of performing their role, and get the job done - I really don’t care.
I totally agree. Perhaps my previous post did not accuractly reflect my opinion.
I’d also agree to a certain extent, but I would also say that most of us pick and choose somewhat.
I’m generally not interested in sport, so I tend not to bother with it. There are other staff on the unit who are happy to arrange all that, and I’m happy to let them.
One of my staff doesn’t enjoy all the paperwork and isn’t interested in computer work so he’s more than happy to let me sort out the file structure, network share, defence writing templates, standing orders, &c.
It’s all about the end result really. I’ve also got a member of staff whose work commitments are high, therefore he doesn’t regularly attend parade evenings or weekend activities - however he’s our RCO and when we need to go shooting he’s there.
He’s picking and choosing - but the cadets are getting the benefit of his service that they wouldn’t get otherwise.
I just personally find the self-deprecating attitudes to be equally as irritating as the arrogant ones.
[quote=“wdimagineer2b” post=2989] There are other staff on the unit who are happy to arrange all that, and I’m happy to let them.[/quote]Indeed - spread the joy.
It is when you find that the picking and choosing has the effect of lumbering one or two people with all of the more tedious jobs that it begins to get annoying. If people don’t take their turn at taking cadets flying, helping out at community events, mucking in with wing sports and so on those few “same old” faces can start getting hacked off.
These are things which need to be done in order to deliver the Air Cadet experience. If the staff have joined up to help deliver that experience then maybe sometimes they need to take one for the team.
Gaining rank and personal accolades is something that happens in parallel as a person works with the organisation. I am glad to see that it is now being tied to some extent with involvement in a wider range of cadet activities so that those who join up and are happy to look after their one little set of interests are less likely to be those who rise in rank. If they have a personal goal to gain promotion or position, that forces a wider involvement and that can only be beneficial to the Corps.
Absolutely!
I firmly believe that promotion should be earnt through personal development, greater involvement, and ultimately the ability to actually perform a valid role in the more senior position.
For the sake of discussion on the ‘same old faces’ point.
It’s commonly the same old faces in our wing training team. But I actually like that. We know what we’re all delivering, we all work well together and compliment each other.
New faces are always welcomed and it’s good to have new skills in but I do tend to prefer the same old faces that I trust over some of the new (but not very effective) instructors that have occasional joined for courses in the past.
Work to your strengths I guess.
I’m not saying I’m here for the cadets and would be if I didn’t get some enjoyment from it. I’m saying the enjoyment I get comes from the cadets and knowing I’m doing my bit NOT from being promoted and wearing tapes.
In any case what do you think of the Cpl (ATC) idea incubus?
A sentiment most Sqn Cdrs will empathise with
I put a stop to this and intoduced a rota for flying, glidng, community and sports events as some staff never ever took the cadets or assisted When it comes to AT or shooting never a shortage.
[quote=“wdimagineer2b” post=2986][quote=“Perry Mason” post=2979]Here, here.
Everytime I hear someone say “I only do it for the cadets” I wonder whether they actually mean it, or if they’re one of the (I suspect majority) who spout it off because it’s almost expected.
I’m sure there are some who genuinely are that kind of selfless volunteer who gives up their time even if they don’t enjoy doing so, but I’d be surprised if it’s anywhere near as many as make out.
God forbid one should appear to be in the organisation for their own enjoyment.
It does seem too common that if you purport to have any sort of personal interest or enjoyment you’re accused of being “in it for the wrong reasons”.[/quote][/quote]
Yes we do it because we get some level of enjoyment given that it’s a hobby. If you don’t enjoy a hobby given it’s your time you’re giving up is there any point in doing it, however if it wasn’t for the teens joining we wouldn’t be required. So we have to do what we do, sometimes if we like it or not for the cadets and have at that as a reason for keeping on doing it.
Why can’t you be a Sgt (ATC) and be the adj, TO, H&S Officer, DEA Officer etc etc? The only two posts in the VR(T) that IMO require you to be commissioned are Sqn and Wg Cdr, but even then there’s no reason a suitably experienced SNCO couldn’t be a Sqn Cdr. When I took my first sqn I had me and 3 fairly new CIs. I was CO, Adj, TO and “SWO”, because I wanted the CIs to concentrate on instruction. They learned other things over time, but when I started their was no option.
I’m not saying I couldn’t be Adj or anything else as a SNCO but as I pointed out my Sqn needed an NCO not a commissioned officer. The Adj thing was just an example.
Given we’re 10 years into the LASER Review and the combined staffing of HQAC and the ACMB in this time have in effect done nothing, what would we expect to see by 2023, given that we will have potentially hundreds up for WO by that time.
Personally in the context of the LASER Review, I would want it changed from the current postion by the middle of next year, but I won’t hold my breath. That it is properly defined process and procedure for promotion of SNCOs, so that I when someone is coming up for it or even if they want to apply, can advise properly.
I would also like to see cadets over 18 allowed to stay on without the fiasco of AI270.
[quote=“axl” post=2993]In any case what do you think of the Cpl (ATC) idea incubus?[/quote]I think it is pants and I have shot it down in the past. I understand the reasoning behind it but it causes logistical problems on camps unless you want to ban them from going.
I understand that there are plans afoot to badge baby Sgt(ATC) with a “negative” version of the rank slide (blue on white) until they have passed SSIC to flag them as “under training”. Our Officer Cadets will have Plt Off braid on a white backing with VR(T) pin to indicate the same.
[quote=“incubus” post=3003][quote=“axl” post=2993]In any case what do you think of the Cpl (ATC) idea incubus?[/quote]I think it is pants and I have shot it down in the past. I understand the reasoning behind it but it causes logistical problems on camps unless you want to ban them from going.
I understand that there are plans afoot to badge baby Sgt(ATC) with a “negative” version of the rank slide (blue on white) until they have passed SSIC to flag them as “under training”. Our Officer Cadets will have Plt Off braid on a white backing with VR(T) pin to indicate the same.
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Isn’t that just the current Sgt rank slide turned inside out? It’s be a good sight cheaper!
Actually, I think giving them Cpl ATC would be a better idea pre-SSIC. However, this is based on the fact that I know Officer Cadets can’t go on annual camp before attending OIC (without special permission.) If ATC NCOs had the same restriction then there would be no on camp issues with having Cpl ATC.
I could see the case for having it as a training rank. I certainly think the Cpl (ATC) idea is a damn sight better than turning a Sgts rank slide inside out…
[quote=“Baldrick” post=3009]Isn’t that just the current Sgt rank slide turned inside out? It’s be a good sight cheaper! [/quote]and would look stupid: try it. This would be a separate item.
[quote=“Baldrick” post=3009]Actually, I think giving them Cpl ATC would be a better idea pre-SSIC. However, this is based on the fact that I know Officer Cadets can’t go on annual camp before attending OIC (without special permission.) If ATC NCOs had the same restriction then there would be no on camp issues with having Cpl ATC.[/quote]I was using “camp” in a more general term to include any stay on an RAF station where they would need to fit into messing and accommodation plans when all other non-comm staff stay/eat in the one place. Why bother finding a problem to solve when we don’t need to?
There is also the “without permission” bit you mention. That permission can be granted so it is not a guarantee that the situation won’t arise.
[quote=“incubus” post=3017][quote=“Baldrick” post=3009]Isn’t that just the current Sgt rank slide turned inside out? It’s be a good sight cheaper! [/quote]and would look stupid: try it. This would be a separate item.
[quote=“Baldrick” post=3009]Actually, I think giving them Cpl ATC would be a better idea pre-SSIC. However, this is based on the fact that I know Officer Cadets can’t go on annual camp before attending OIC (without special permission.) If ATC NCOs had the same restriction then there would be no on camp issues with having Cpl ATC.[/quote]I was using “camp” in a more general term to include any stay on an RAF station where they would need to fit into messing and accommodation plans when all other non-comm staff stay/eat in the one place. Why bother finding a problem to solve when we don’t need to?
There is also the “without permission” bit you mention. That permission can be granted so it is not a guarantee that the situation won’t arise.[/quote]
Why Corporal (ATC), why not Aircraftman (ATC)?
Same as SNCO Air Traffic Controllers and Aircrew. Start at AC, become Sergeant when trained.
A marginally better idea but still unnecessary IMHO 