LASER Review ...10 years on

[quote=“wdimagineer2b” post=2512]Despite the supposed intentions, WO is bascially just as much an ‘automatic’ promotion now as it ever was. I don’t feel that should be the case. I think that FS should be the standard top rank with promotion to WO limited to those who actually deserve it and can carry it off.

All that said though, I accept that sooner or later I’m going to have to apply because they are going to continue promoting useless idiots above me; and as much as I’d prefer to stay FS for a few more years, I don’t intend to be patronised by any more wannabee WOs who think they know better because they’ve got a big crown. :stuck_out_tongue: [/quote]
I don’t think it was ever intended to be automatic, hence the course which I recall was going to be a pass course, not attendance only. But as yet it doesn’t exist, which highights a major problem if they are promoting people already.
The real problem with new style WO is what will their TOR be? Will they all have to be drill-pigs or will we be able to have balance? I fear the former. There are more WOs and equivalents in the regulars who aren’t concerned with shouty marching stuff, than those that are.

I concur with the sentiment about what do you do once you are a WO, as I reached a point when I was WO in the old days, where I had done everything (bar WWO) that WOs do and as I had no plan to be the WWO, I applied for and was appointed a commissioned. Once you reach WO that’s what you’ve got left, or revert to CI. But I suppose it depends on what an individual wants. I wanted a few more options.
I think that within the context of the ACO 8 years is long enough to WO, make it much longer in basic terms and then the rank has to be an awful lot more, in terms of the promise it has to hold, than just aspiration, given this is only a hobby and not a career. As I say what are the TORs for WO?

Can I ask, in whose opinion are they “promoting useless idiots”?
We’re all someone’s “useless idiots”.

i mean did the rates go up with the pay review board/annual increase (thats not really happened last few years) or did they completely mark time (regardless of inflation etc)

The priciple which was applies when an ATC WO commissioned was that they retained WO pay rates (which are higher than Plt OFf) as they shouldn’t be financially inconvenienced and it seems like that principle was applied.

I expect that the ex-WO was paid at their last WO rate until the annual rate of FS caught up or overtook it or until they regained WO.

[quote=“valley boy” post=2518]As far as I know, to be eligible for consideration for promotion to Warrant Officer (ATC) you have to comply with the following;

a. Has the SNCO fulfilled the terms and conditions of their appointment ie. Have they completed the SSIC?
Do they attend regularly and provide the required guidance and tuition to the cadets on the sqn?
Are their clearances and extension of service dates up to date?

b. Has the SNCO been the subject of any administrative or disciplinary action that may warrant a deferment for promotion in order for them to prove themselves further or are they under suspension currently waiting resolution (for what ever reason)?

c. Has the SNCO participated in extra-curricular activities such as camps or expeditions. For promotion to WO (ATC), a SNCO should have completed a further 2 Camps in FS (ATC) rank and ideally have assisted in the Wg with organising a camp or other main wg activity.

d. For promotion to WO (ATC), has the SNCO upgraded his/her qualifications or obtained another qualification in another discipline?

e. Has the SNCO participated in any personal development courses?
e.g. Technical course; Amport House; Methods of Instruction Course; other.

If the SNCO has failed to meet one or more of the requirements outlined at sub-paras a – e then Recommending Officers should conclude that the individual is not yet ready for promotion or alternatively outline why exceptionally authority for promotion should be granted.

(The above is taken from my wings Procedure for the promotion of SNCO’s document)[/quote]
Out of curiosity
Which parts carry the most weight?
Is the same applied for Officers?
What is the rationale for c, d and e wrt SNCOs?

With regards to which holds the most weight, I would think that they are all equal as you have to be able to show that you meet all the requirements a-e in order to be eligible for consideration for promotion.

I am not sure if it applies to officers or what is the rationale behind points c-e.

That procedure is Corps policy, see P Letter 1/11 dated 15 Mar 11.

No similar requirements for Officers as far as I am aware.

Oh well another one our Wing has failed to keep us in the loop on.

So if no similar requirements exist for officers, then is this fair? I appreciate that for a F/O to gain promotion to Flt.Lt they have to attend and pass a senior officers course, which I think should also be mandatory for WO ATC.

I personally think that the current procedure for SNCO promotion is a good idea, as it can provide a visible career path for ACO personnel, and also provides a fool proof method making the SNCO accountable for what they do (or don’t do)and whether or not they are eligible for consideration for promotion. With those NCO’s who work and make a difference gaining promotion, and those that don’t staying at their current rank.

D’oh! …of course we will have had WO promotions by now! That clunking sound will be me dropping the ball :oops:

[quote]valley boy wrote:
I appreciate that for a F/O to gain promotion to Flt Lt they have to attend and pass a senior officers course, which I think should also be mandatory for WO ATC[/quote]

That was the original idea!

The intent of the LASER Review is clear enough:

[quote]Oct 2003 CROs wrote:

ANNEX B TO
CRO SERIAL NO 20
DATED 1 OCT 03
CHANGE OF TERMS OF SERVICE - NON-COMMISSIONED STAFF

NEW TERMS

  1. Volunteers aged 20 yrs and over may elect to join the Corps as NCO staff under the following terms:

a. Direct from ATC ‘Instructor cadet’ service or service as a CI, or in the initial appointment of Adult Sgt - on probation for the first year – with the opportunity to progress to Adult FS and Adult WO as follows:

(4) Senior Adult FSs will be required to attend a new course designed to prepare them for advancement to AWO.[/quote]

…and the post-LASER ACA223 in ACP20B (the current version on BADER) is also clear enough!

[quote]ACAI223 ACP20B wrote:

TRAINING

  1. Senior Adult FSs will be required to attend a course to prepare them for advancement to AWO.

PROMOTION

  1. After 4 years satisfactory service, on the recommendation of the Sqn CO, and the authority of the Wing CO, Adult Sgts may be promoted to Adult FS. [color=#ff0000]After a further 4 years service, an Adult FS may, on selection by the Rgnl Comdt be promoted to Adult WO provided he or she has completed the AWO course[/color].[/quote]

…but P Letter 1-11 makes no mention of a “WO Course”, and simply gives guidance as to promotion criteria for FS and WO!

[quote]P Letter 1-11 (15 Mar 11) wrote:

Promotion Criteria

  1. Further to the checks stated above, this policy letter provides guidance to Sqn Cdrs, OCs Wing and Rgnl Comdts to assist them in providing a measure of standardisation across the Corps in deciding what constitutes the necessary level of commitment necessary for promotion. In so doing it heralds a change to existing policy in recognising that some individuals may not reach the necessary standard of commitment and thus not secure promotion. This implies that some sqn NCOs who are content to involve themselves only in sqn business may never rise above the rank of Sgt (ATC). This is an entirely acceptable situation for the individual concerned, to whom no criticism should be attributed. Those who are eligible to recommend a promotion from Sgt (ATC) to FS (ATC) or from FS(ATC) to WO (ATC) should, therefore, be aware of the following criteria on which to base their decision:

a. Has the SNCO fulfilled the terms and conditions of their appointment ie. Have they completed the SSIC, do they attend regularly and provide the required guidance and tuition to the cadets on the sqn, are their clearances and extension of service dates up to date?

b. Has the SNCO been the subject of any administrative or disciplinary action that may warrant a deferment for promotion in order for them to prove themselves further?

c. Has the SNCO participated in extra-curricular activites such as Camps or expeditions. As a guide for promotion to FS (ATC), a SNCO should have attended at least one Blue Camp on an RAF Station and at least one Green residential Camp for Fieldcraft, AT, Exped or similar. For promotion to WO (ATC), a SNCO should have completed a further 2 Camps in FS (ATC) rank and ideally have assisted the Wing in organising a Camp

d. Has the SNCO gained any extra qualifications to strengthen their ability to aid the sqn in a particular field such at H&S, AT, DofE, Shooting, Drill, First Aid, Radio, Fieldcraft ? For promotion to WO (ATC) rank, has the SNCO upgraded this qualification or obtained another qualification in another discipline?

e. Has the SNCO participated in any personal development courses?

If the SNCO has failed to meet one or more of the requirements outlined at sub-paras a – e then Recommending Officers should conclude that the individual is not yet ready for promotion or alternatively outline why exceptionally authority for promotion should be granted.[/quote]

No mention of a WO Course, and there are none planned at ATF for 2013. So… is this an administrative oversight, or a deliberate policy U-turn? (i.e. we haven’t got the resources to run WO Courses, and we should have had them in the pipeline for 2011 …so let’s remove the requirement! ?)

Has the WO Course been kicked into the long grass?

Cheers
BTI

Given that they needed to be able to provide a WO course in 2007 if not earlier and there is no sign of one being produced I think it isn’t seen as a priority.

Should - yes. But I know a few who didn’t fulfill but were promoted anyway.
The idea of the requirements is a good one, it just doesn’t seem to be followed equally across the Corps which renders it pretty much pointless.
But as said, I just feel that another few years before being eligable for WO would help give the rank a bit more credence.

To be fair, I wasn’t actually saying that myself, but that IS the impression that some regulars hold of us. I’m sure we’ve all met the type of staff who help give them that impression too.
I’ve been doing fine for years with most ATC staff and regulars alike, but I have no intention of humouring someone who isn’t up to the job just to win favours. I like to think that I get on well with pretty much anyone but, ‘hobby’ or not, I don’t tolerate incompetance very well.
If people want to hold a rank/position the least I expect from them is to be able to do it properly. Those who have no credibility are, in my opinion, unsuited to their position.

That’s my opinion but I’m sure I’m not alone. I know a number of WOs at various levels in the Corps who really don’t know what they’re doing. At WO they should be the absolute expert in their field. If I as a FS with 10 years service (CI and SNCO) know their job better than they do, then there’s something wrong.

That said, I also know plenty of SNCOs and Officers who really don’t get it either.

I guess I’m just becoming disillusion with the calibre of some of the staff I’m coming into contact with. They’re by no means the majority, but we all know how negative traits can stand out above the majority of decent staff.

WDI… do you think that standards were dropped for the introduction of Sgt (ATC) rank, and that this drop in sandards has followed up the NCO structure?

(Not commenting, just asking!)

Edited to add… if you do think this is the case, what is your solution?

I think the arbitary box ticking exercise doesn’t necessarily get to the nub of what a decent NCO, WO or Officer is…

Should - yes. But I know a few who didn’t fulfill but were promoted anyway.
The idea of the requirements is a good one, it just doesn’t seem to be followed equally across the Corps which renders it pretty much pointless.
But as said, I just feel that another few years before being eligable for WO would help give the rank a bit more credence.[/quote]
It may be that without the proper course in place, Wings are ignoring the criteria as they are arbitrary.

To be fair, I wasn’t actually saying that myself, but that IS the impression that some regulars hold of us. I’m sure we’ve all met the type of staff who help give them that impression too.
I’ve been doing fine for years with most ATC staff and regulars alike, but I have no intention of humouring someone who isn’t up to the job just to win favours. I like to think that I get on well with pretty much anyone but, ‘hobby’ or not, I don’t tolerate incompetance very well.
If people want to hold a rank/position the least I expect from them is to be able to do it properly. Those who have no credibility are, in my opinion, unsuited to their position.[/quote]
Do I care what the regulars think of us? Not really. I see so little of them for either party to form any more than a passing unqualified opinion. If this bothers you then you are going to have a bad time overall.

They are plenty of people above the rank of WO in the organisation as a whole who aren’t suited to their position.

At WO they should be the absolute expert in their field. [/quote]
What exactly does this mean? I know WOs who are ‘experts in their field’ eg Comms/Radio, Shooting, Music, Aircraft Rec, AT, PPLs so absolutely experts on all matters aviation. Their 3Ds are adequate, but that’s not their thing. I also know some who are shouty drill types and that’s about it.

Interesting question. I’m not sure whether standards were dropped for Sgt. It’s hard for me to say. I narrowly missed the old AWO appointment (application pulled when Sgt was introduced and ended up being one of the first Sgt ATC applications in), so I don’t have direct experience of the old AWO standard. I suspect there wasn’t much change though.

I do however think that standards are too low.
ATF courses are too easy in my opinion and there is not enough emphasis on post course learning and development.
I see this a lot in the drill sphere where people pass the course and then sit back happily professing to be an all-knowing “DI” without actually take the initiative to put in the required further learning and practice to truly earn the title.
We all know this - there’s enough talk on here about ‘bad DIs’.

This sort of relaxed attitude to personal development is probably what contributes to what I see as the substandard quality of some staff.
But, I am perhaphs biased because I’m the type of person who isn’t satisfied until I know as much about a subject as I can. I’m always striving to learn more (about anything) because doing so fulfills me.

Granted, we need staff; but we need GOOD staff. I believe the way to achieve this is not by raising the bar so high that only the top percentile get through - that’s unrealistic of course, but by raising it enough to sort the wheat from the chaff and then by striving for staff development.

Yes we all have limits on our time and attending further courses can be difficult, but there has to be a balance between getting the staff in - and ensuring that they’re good at the job. I’m not sure the organisation has got it quite right yet.

The Skill at Arms Instructor course is a good step in the right direction!
A tough course which fails those who aren’t up to it and ensures that those who pass are of a top-notch standard.

[quote=“glass half empty 2” post=2549]

What exactly does this mean? I know WOs who are ‘experts in their field’ eg Comms/Radio, Shooting, Music, Aircraft Rec, AT, PPLs so absolutely experts on all matters aviation. Their 3Ds are adequate, but that’s not their thing. I also know some who are shouty drill types and that’s about it.[/quote]

I’m thinking of those who simply don’t know enough in ‘their field’ to be an expert; and worse, the ones who are arrogant enough to think that they are experts, but when it comes down to it they are demonstrably not.

[quote]Perry Mason wrote:
…do you think that standards were dropped for the introduction of Sgt (ATC) rank, and that this drop in sandards has followed up the NCO structure?[/quote]

Arguably not, since (AFAIK) there is no discernable difference in the nature of the current selection board for Sgt(ATC) as there was for the “old” AWO …someone who is prepared enough to pass the Sgt(ATC) board now, would surely have passed the “old” AWO board - because the process is was, and currently still is (wrongly IMHO) simply based on an interview and the recommendation of the candidate’s OC.

In theory, what should have happened between 2003 and 2011 (the earliest which someone appointed Sgt in 03 could have been eligible for promotion to WO), is a raising of standards; because WO candidates have 8 years of service behind them, and were supposed to have passed a WO Course.

Without the “new” post-LASER WO course, the only guaranteed - standardised - training SNCOs receive is on SSIC (as it was with the ACTC AWO Course), the rest is - I guess, because it’s not written down anywhere! - supposed to be On the Job Training (OJT) carried out at a local level; and/or absorbed by experience …which arguably is a guarantee of nothing - and thus we have the same varying standards which the ATC always had with AWOs. Some are “discip” types, some are “expert” types …rarely do they come with all the ticks in the box.

I think what this comes down to is the fact that not all SNCOs are suitable for promotion - as not all Officers are suitable for promotion. In the Offr cadre, there is an element of selection for promotion as (hopefully!) less able candidates are not promoted to Sqn Cdr, and are thus limited to Fg Off until they are “time served” (9yrs, if I recall correctly). Personally I would take this one stage further and remove time served promotions, thus leaving some demarkation between the more and less able. Looking further up the food chain - ideally - only the most able and proven Sqn Cdrs should be promoted to WSO posts (or Sqn Ldr/Sector Cdr at least).

With the SNCO cadre, things are less clear cut. P Letter 1-11 is an attempt to give some guidance, but is flexible enough to mean that (a) as long as you haven’t been in trouble and (b) if you’ve done a few camps, you’re going to get promoted. There are no objective, measurable, competency and performance-linked promotion criteria for SNCOs

…then again, I suppose the same could be said for Officers also. We also need to be realistic and look at the capacity of the ATC - as an organisation - to base promotion on objective, measurable, competency and performance-linked promotion criteria :frowning:

Cheers
BTI

[quote=“wdimagineer2b” post=2566]I believe the way to achieve this is not by raising the bar so high that only the top percentile get through - that’s unrealistic of course, but by raising it enough to sort the wheat from the chaff [/quote]That is a ridiculous suggestion. You’d never get a squadron vetting their cadets for promotion that way so why would you apply it to staff?

Wait…

^ hehe :smiley:

thoughts? …analysis? …positives? …negatives? …unintended consequences?

To answer the OP and in turn touch on other comments since

I will start by indicating I was a Cadet when this review came out, and was caught up in the first bracket of Cadets over 18 and so timed out at 20. I didn’t see the review when it came out, but have heard of it since and understand that it brought about the changes to the staff NCO structure and the white tab (“pedo band”) to the over 18 Cadets (which since has gone through other changes)

thoughts
Firstly what are the “aspirations” that the review tried to meet?
Based on what Batfink’s copied of the review, B, C and D are fairly black and white in what they mean and have a measurable result “has this been achieved yes/no?”

But (a) is a new one to me; it would be interesting to read what “aspirations” were being targeted to determine if this has been achieved.

As a general exercise I like it. It makes much more sense to have a progression to WO with Sgt and FS in the same way there is Plt Off and Fg Off prior to Flt Lt.
The Junior Officers had chance to gain experience, mature, learn/be trained all towards the role of OC. There was no such option for WO and think it has helped reduce the number of ill prepared/young WO as they now have at least 8 years’ experience.

“Back in my day” the Sqn I was at had a CO, a junior officer WO and two CIs, and it was clear the Sqn was run by the CO in the office and WO elsewhere. That Sqn now has an additional NCO, and two additional Officers, but did have at one point [i[four[/i] SNCOs plus the WO!!
I much prefer the three SNCO ranks, as it offers a level of hierarchy and seniority, allows for experience and training to be gained before the senior position of WO, had the Sqn had five WOs it would have been a confusing time for all and had a vast difference in abilty.

I believe the additional SNCO ranks have opened up the door to uniform for those staff who may not have considered it before. The role of WO was an imposing position rubbing shoulders with fellow WOs with sometime decades of experience yet the rank indicated you were equals and I can believe would have put some off, in much the same way going the Commissioned route is likely to have lead them to the position of CO with some not wanting to work towards that responsibility and so were happy to avoid any uniform position.

Those looking for a uniform role, without the pressures of instant seniority (WO) or eventual command and responsibility (CO) now have the option of Sgt as the lowest uniform rank and thus minimal expectations against all other ranks.

Unfortunately I think this is a downside in some cases – there are some who I think would never suit a uniform position yet have been appointed Sgts – they would never have been appointed to WO in the old system.
Some SNCOs I meet I’d like to have heard their answer to what they hoped to gain from wearing uniform that they couldn’t achieve as a CI.

I am very much in the same camp as wdimagineer2B on the subject of substandard uniformed members, however not as WO but as Sgts. In my experience in several Wings I believe some people were appointed simply because they fancied wearing the uniform/didn’t want to be “just” a CI* rather than because they had a genuine skill or talent which a uniform role could utilise. Or it is used as a “training” rank to see if a staff member “suits” the uniform role.

I hear too often of CIs working effectively in the office, appointed to Sgt without any change to their role or responsibility on Sqn…the uniform has changed little about what they do (remaining in the office, away from Cadets), how they behave or levels of responsibility, however they now have the confidence (hiding behind the uniform) to reprimand the Cadets, give instructions/orders and with the benefit of claiming pay. Effectively a uniformed CI, given the minimal change to their attitude.
These staff members annoy me a lot as I feel it belittles the rank and devalues the ability of those hard working competent SNCOs and genuine future WOs who are simply passing through the same system.

On the flip side however appointment to Sgt offers at least 8 years of training and experience to be gained to bring a SNCO up to standard, and can give the rank of WO a better name as it isn’t just anyone who is promoted but quality, talented instructors with skills and attitudes which suit the role and rank.
In much the same way that a CO is not appointed to just anyone who has ticked a few basic boxes but has the relevant skills, talent and ability to succeed in that office.
[off topic] As such I would agree with removing the “time served” promotion to Flt Lt, reserving the rank to those who have held higher responsibility than Squadron Officer, either as a Sqn CO or in a Wing role (sport, shooting, BTEC, Radio Officer etc.) – to help indicate a level of competence across the board, a Flt Lt is either a CO, or holds a Wing post and thus has a higher responsibility than a Sqn Officer (Adj/Training/Other) who hasn’t changed role or level of responsibility in 12 years, but has been promoted through “time served”

I am sympathetic to those Squadrons with low numbers of Staff and Cadets sometimes the most appropriate person for the job would not necessarily the right person for the role elsewhere, but as a “hobby” with a “get what we’re given” approach to which Staff walk through our door we cannot always afford to be choosy on who is appointed based on the selection process of our recruited Staff.
There are Sqns out there with only one uniformed member of staff and so there is a clear need to increase that number, which may result in lowering the standard to fill the need, and I accept this, on the basis that the senior ranks (FS and WO) are offered the correct respect and not awarded simply automatically because of “time served”. Fortunately in our Wing this has been the case.

The status issues surrounding over 18 cadets I think was a confusing affair, with the white tapes, instructor and now staff Cadet. I can see why it has been done but feel it could have been clearer although being a new system understand there were things that would and wouldn’t work and it was just a matter of finding the right identifier. A clear issue was the lack of adequate stores of whatever identifier was in use, a constant storage of white taps or relevant rank slides.
On the positive however I feel it has acknowledged the older Cadets a lot more than before. In my experience as a Cadet a CWO was seen as the pinnacle of responsibility, and was regularly seen as “Staff” on courses, exercise or events off Sqn.
However today, with the fewer numbers of Cadets staying on past 18 and the recued age limit at 20 there is a reduced pool to select from resulting in less CWOs around but the “Staff” prefix offers these Cadets recognition of their maturity and reliability even if they do not have the CWO rank

analysis
Hard to offer a decent analysis as I am unsure what was the intended outcome of (a) - Meet the aspirations of the ATC’s non-commissioned uniformed staff. As mentioned above. However (b) and © have been achieved, with the adoption of Instructor and Staff cadet prefix to ranks, Senior Cadets have an understanding of where they fit in the structure and gives them a taste of life as Staff with basic responsibilities or instructional duties. With the BASIC and MOI courses to attend it has offered value and invested interested in these Cadets by offering them Staff style courses progressing them past NCO/Leadership courses. I have seen examples both on our and neighbouring Sqns where this has resulted in Cadets joining the Staff team once they have timed out.

positives

  • Opened the door to a uniform role to Staff who might not have considered such a role in the past
  • As such an increased the number of uniform staff
  • offered a clear path of progression (training?) towards WO, with requirements to achieve prior to each promotion
  • Recognised and acknowledged the maturity of our 18+ year old Cadets
  • Encouraged Senior Cadets to consider joining the Staff team with relevant training for a Staff role

Negatives

  • Some Staff appointed to uniform (Sgt) who would not have been under the former system (straight to WO)
  • The Rank of Sgt is seen by some as a training or taster rank
  • Created a larger variation between those who were ready for uniform and those less so, devaluing the rank

unintended consequences

  • offers the opportunity for greater respect of the WO rank, and in turn recognises the right staff for the job by holding back SNCOs at Sgt or FS
  • Has increased the number of competent instructors on Sqn but training senior Cadets (MOI) which can be included into the training program

*”Just a CI” is a hateful reference for me, this organisation could not operate without our CIs, our Sqn a perfect example, but I know some staff look down on CIs and some CIs don’t feel “worthy” as they don’t wear a uniform.

[quote=“incubus” post=2576][quote=“wdimagineer2b” post=2566]I believe the way to achieve this is not by raising the bar so high that only the top percentile get through - that’s unrealistic of course, but by raising it enough to sort the wheat from the chaff [/quote]That is a ridiculous suggestion. You’d never get a squadron vetting their cadets for promotion that way so why would you apply it to staff?

Wait…[/quote]

I think Incubus has hit it spot on here, why should the staff get their promotion for being part of a squadron coming down twice a week and doing a couple of courses, all the staff do this, there is nothing special there. We often here about the cadet that does everything and wants to know what to do to be promoted, because turning up and taking part just isn’t good enough. The same subjective approach should be taken with staff promotions IMO. Hopefully HQAC will introduce a National selection program for SNCOs in the future OASC is for officers and non-commisioned aircrew (NCOs) so it could even be a joint exercise…

Here’s a thought (that I’ve probably posted before) - SNCOs should only be promoted to WO if it fills a suitable post, i.e. Sector/Wing/Region WO or WO on a Cat A Sqn.

Thoughts?

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