Do you not think that there is a third way?
Perhaps someone could prefer belonging to a secular RAFAC, whilst still being free to celebrate Christmas in a way that suits them?
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Yes, so long as it isn’t hypocritical.
Which religious festivals should/could be hijacked next? Could Ramadan be re-shaped into a month long booze and food festival with presents ?
Trying to lay a trap and accuse us of hypocrisy for how we engage within our own country and its established cultural calendar while implying we then wouldn’t have the right to seek broader change isn’t really a line of attack I’m willing to indulge.
It isn’t a good faith argument and it seems to be a very popular one. It isn’t all or nothing — cultural identities are very complex and can shift and diverge entirely dependant upon context.
Edit: It’s rather like accusing a climate activist of hypocrisy because they wear clothes that come from fossil fuels or drive a car. To a significant degree, people are a product of the circumstances of birth, but aspiring to achieve genuine change isn’t hypocritical.
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Something which seems to get missed with these sorts of debates. Lots of what-about-isms trying to compare situations which are unique.
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When it comes to hypocrisy,in my personal opinion, religion wins hands down.
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They do invariably drive big dirty diesel 4x4s though, when an EV or even a hybrid would show some practise of what they preach.
Why does that matter?
Even if I was a member of the clergy, I wouldn’t necessarily want or need religious content in everything I do.
If the organisation was secular, I would still be free to practice my religious beliefs in my own time, whilst allowing those that may be put off by religious connections to participate.
What’s hypocritical about that?
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If anything, that would be genuinely putting others before your own personal beliefs, which is what we’re all supposed to do.
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I think that’s a somewhat unsubstantiated claim. I can’t afford to go out and buy an EV, but that doesn’t mean I don’t think the government should be using its immense power to do much of the collective heavy lifting that we as individuals can’t possibly achieve by ourselves.
See my previous response as to why “practising what one preaches”, particularly on the subject of climate change, isn’t really a fair judgement to make.
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I don’t know. What is hypocritical about being atheist, but at the same time being fully onboard with ‘Christian Mass’ because it gets you a new xbox?
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Personally, I think it’s perfectly possible to give and receive presents at Christmas, and not have any religious beliefs. Societal and social norms alone would encourage it. Besides, how many Christmas traditions have any basis in religion, and how many have just evolved due to other influences (Santa, Christmas Crackers etc)?
In any case, we’re not just talking about Atheists. How does all this talk about ‘Christian Mass’ make your Muslim cadets feel? What about the Jewish cadets? What about Sikh cadets?
Do they feel fully included, or just spectators? Perhaps, if we removed the primacy of Christian religion, they may feel more… included.
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Religious technicality but I always thought it was “Christ’s Mass” I.e. the mass celebrating the birth of the saviour.
As an aside a number of work places allow people to change their designated public holidays for annual leave purposes.
I understand this but I disagree with it as the secularisation goes along with the commercialisation aspect.
Compare with thanksgiving which is similar but secular holy day (holiday).
Ironically it would probably more appropriate for a secularist to have a nativity scene rather than a Santa as the former relates to a real (albeit mythologised) historic figure and that latter a fictional commercialisation.
Correlation and causation aren’t automatically linked.
Secularisation has nothing to do with it, unless you corrupt the meaning of the word, which defeats the point of having words with agreed upon definitions.
On that basis I wouldn’t really agree with your second point. I think we’re starting to talk about something a little different.
You’re misusing words and also erecting a straw man.
No one is being hypocritical and nobody is pretending to believe in a fictional virgin birth so they can get a present from their fun uncle.
*That’s my take on that origin story. Other interpretations are available.
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You mean St Nicholas, the Bishop of Myra?
Because I’ve found, through extensive liaison and engagement, that this is an initiative with very broad support, I’m currently building the shell of a national campaign to lobby for remembrance to shift to an inclusive model nationally.
If it’s me doing it alone, it’s too easy to try and mis-frame this as a non-religious vs religious thing, but as a vanilla body comprising many different worldviews, that main objection disappears.
If anyone here would be interested in getting involved (or just adding themselves to the distro list as a supporter, so I can quote your particular worldview alongside a total number of supporters), please ping me an email at: oc.1324… (that’ll save you outing yourself if you value your privacy on the forum).
There’s significant appetite, so I now just need to do something formal with it!
Will that model be inclusive and welcoming to people who want to sing hymns and say prayers at remembrance parades?
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You clearly have no issue with how people currently feel excluded by the presence of those very things, and so it seems you’re confusing “not getting your own way” with “being excluded”.
A lack of overtly religious content (your specific version of religious, to be precise) doesn’t exclude you any more than your local Tesco does by not daubing the walls in scripture and playing evensong over the speakers (thanks to a poster above for that concept). .
The presence of those things does, however, exclude everyone else to one degree or another.
If you wouldn’t be happy with me standing at a lectern and bashing your religion, then you understand how it feels to everyone else when someone uses remembrance to talk about your version of god publicly.
You have religious buildings for that purpose — the public community space is for all of us.
Also, a number of religious people have agreed that a separate religious event could be held afterwards for those that want it, so you’d lose nothing.
Unless of course you enjoy forcing everyone else to observe your public worship?
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This is where it gets interesting. Who’s model of inclusivity are we going to use?
While personally not being religious I have had the pleasure of meeting many great unit padres who have brought a great deal to many Sqns. I have also met a few who have not. I am broadly happy with remembrance having a religious slant as it has been said many times that in a fox hole facing the enemy no one as an atheist.
I have never made anyone go to church as an act of remembrance. Also, I have never had a cadet question why we are going to church for remembrance. Churches are still at the centre of many communities and are included in many civic events.
As far as I can remember, singing (badly) O God our help in ages past, is as much part or remembrance as the last post or the laying of wreaths.
I think we should get our own house in order before we looking to change other peoples events.
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