[quote=“angus” post=20278]
i have to ask, who spends money getting new/unofficial/whatever crests turned into signs, banners etc… and not on buying kit, diesel, and subsidising trips? is this perhaps not a selection mechanism that HQAC should be using to work out who should be given the opportunity to explore wider interests?[/quote]
in my experience those with crests already have minibuses, tents, burgans, rifles and everything else!
Correct me if I’m wrong, but you only pay if you want it registered with the heraldry society - you can just have it approved by HQAC for free…?
[quote=“incubus” post=20209]I have no problem at all with the ACO mandating a certain general design on squadron badges - that being pretty much everything but the design in the middle.
I also have no issues with them placing certain restrictions on the central design to ensure that it is appropriate for use in representing the ACO and is not plagiarised from a military design which caught someone’s fancy.
I do have issue with enforcing heraldic motifs and layouts on the designs and for paying hundreds of pounds to a private company to manage the system then [possibly having a limited “original” to work from.
Spending £500 for an approved badge seems like a misuse of charity funds to me.[/quote]
Agreed on every last point.
Has anything come of this? I’ve not noticed any reduction in gopping badges.
My OC is interested in getting our badge formally approved but don’t think he’s aware of the cost!
Nothing that I’m aware of, frankly it’s unenforecable on HQAC’s part anyway. Your better off just doing what you want and running with it.
I keep hearing the same old “HQAC are going to require…” but no, nothing as yet.
I keep offering my ‘not expert, but somewhat informed’ advice when asked, but as you say - there are still dozens of awful badges out there.
On one hand, the most pragmatic approach might be to say “HQAC have appointed a person with experience who will gladly give advice to Squadrons and will ‘approve internally’ the designs of Squadron badges.” That way, units with money to burn who choose to go through The College could pay their £500 and get an officially approved badge; where those who can’t justify the cost and want to do their own thing could at least be controlled. If there were no cost involved it would be far easier to enforce the removal of these awful badges in favour of something appropriate.
On the other hand of course, any HQAC appointed person, being outside the College of Arms, is not going to have easy access to the huge collection of already approved badges, thus making it far harder to rule out the efforts of some local squadron who’ve swiped the design from someone else’s approved badge.
There are lots of ATC Squadrons who have adopted the devices of RAF Squadrons (or those of other Commonwealth Air Forces) because they share the same number. That isn’t an acceptable justification for approval. I’ve often heard “…but the Squadron Association said that we could use it”. That doesn’t cut the mustard because the Squadron Association doesn’t own the rights to the badge - they can’t gift it’s use to someone else.
If the College of Arms should ever force the point there would be little that HQAC could do, other than to forbid the use of unapproved badges and mandate that everyone wishing to have a badge goes through the College… Which brings us back to where we keep being threatened with going.
How would they enforce it? “You Cadet take off that T-Shirt” I hardly think so.
The £500 cost is nothing compared to the value that most Squadrons have in circulation in Squadron Clothing. (Hell I probably have over £100 worth from each of my last 2 Squadrons!)
Many of the badges out their while somewhat gopping in heraldry terms actually have a lot of local history in them. (Yes someone should remind people of the Colours things are supposed to be, but beyond that why do we care?).
Maybe just maybe the Corps should stick to focusing on things that matter rather than Policing T-Shirts & Letterheads?
But it may not be HQAC’s choice. If the College of Arms decided to make a fuss - as is their legal right - HQAC will have to respond; and saying “Sorry chaps, we’re not interested in policing T-shirts and letterheads within our Corps” will probably not effect the outcome we would like.
Where these badges have already been used on items such as clothing and vehicle livery it’s more problematic; or, rather, it’s far less popular. The sensible approach would be to say that no further production is made using the inappropriate badge and that future runs must only use an approved badge.
But with regards to the use of unofficial badges on stationary, or on websites/social media it’s easier: “You will not use that gopping badge on your website from this point onwards. Contact so-and-so who will be happy to advise and assist you in producing a more appropriate badge.”
Some of these badge issues are not simply that the devices are not displayed in a traditionally heraldic tincture; some of them are using images or mottos which are not appropriate to be associated with our organization; and/or are using the wrong Crown (which is a legal infringement of Crown copyright) and/or displaying a laurel wreath.
The simple approach of providing a fixed design template for squadron badges with the central devices to be chosen be the squadrons, in line with some basic guidelines, would be a good first step to fixing most of the errors and turning out some consistency within the Corps. It’s an easy fix.
Within my Wing at least, I’ve made it very clear to Squadrons what the potential pitfalls might be and I’ve offered my best guess advice to everyone. Primarily in the interest of preventing costly mistakes should the College/HQAC force our hand in the future.
If having received that advice a unit goes off and spends their money getting their awful badge embroidered onto clothing or whatever, then whilst it might end up a costly mistake in the future, they can’t say that they weren’t warned.
We really should be taking the basic design the ATC badge and adhering to that for unit badges at all levels of the organisation. That means red circle, gold scroll, a set typeface in black (though not the corps one), the same crown and, for squadrons, the number in indents.
No blue circles. No laurel leaves on the outside, no cunning designs.
What goes in the middle is up to the squadron. Ideally it apparently needs to be heraldic symbology ona white field to have a hope of being approved, but I am not sure we should worry about sticking to that. What we do need to do is ensure we are not using anything inappropriate and are not stealing anybody else’s intellectual property.
In other words, based on the template I have up on the ACCDrive 
I’ve found Flareserif821 BT to be a nice approximation of the original type used on the ATC badge.
I’ve used it in all the badges I’ve drawn up for people.
Perhaps, but it is awful and the kerning on the ATC badge sucks.
I quite like the face myself; but I agree that the kerning is unpleasant.
You sound like the man form the college of arms?
Not Guilty… But I’ve sort of adopted the “resident guidance man” role within my Wing and have some limited experience of the man from the College of Arms.
I’ve looked into this and the £500 fee is the biggest sticking point!!
Also the choice of the centre of the badge is another problem. The cadets at the unit like the centre and the motto, but we would loose both if we went through the process. I have hunted high and low for local information that could be used, but as my Squadron is located in between two areas that were villages, but are now part of a large town, which already has a named Squadron, we are scratching around!
I totally agree about all the other stuff about Astral Crowns and laurel wreaths, but to change from a popular badge to something the cadets would not identify with is not something I want to do!
If the devices are appropriate then I can’t see why you’d be forced to lose them.
If on the other hand they’re not considered appropriate to represent the organisation as part of an heraldic badge then it shouldn’t matter whether it’s “popular”. Inappropriate is inappropriate and hard luck.
Does anybody know if the special projects officer for Badges is still in post?
And if so, is their contact address still acobadges@gmail.com?
If you go through the formal process, the centre has to be linked to either the history of the area or nearby significant event. My unit has neither and has a badge selected by previous cadets.
The process may come up with a very interesting badge and new motto, but again they might not! I am not prepared to risk £500 of the cadets money for this process.
My unit’s badge is not inappropriate, just not formally approved!
I see, I’d misunderstood… Probably because images of some of the awful badges around always spring to my mind when I think of them being disallowed. My mind had already done down that route.
The devices don’t necessarily have to relate specifically to the history of the area but should have some sort of tangible link to the unit.
True, if the design had been chosen by cadets just because they thought it was nice and it bore no particular relationship to the unit then it would probably not be approved.
Though, there is a question which says that given the whole purpose of an heraldic badge is to represent the Sqn, if the badge bares no relevance to it (beyond simply the cadets liking it and it having been there for a year or two) then is there any point to it?
Personally “the cadets like it” wouldn’t be enough for me. A badge needs to represent the Unit for decades to come when the current staff and cadets are long gone.
I suppose if you could argue that the design had been associated with the unit for 70 years, or whatever (and if the devices were heraldically acceptable to the college) it might be grounds enough to be accepted.
This is somewhat hypothetical conjecture though, as I assume that you’ve already enquired with the College and been told that you’d have to change it.
It might give someone else some ideas though.
I’ve taken advice from someone who has successfully gone through the process, which produced a very good badge for them.
My problem is the £500 to even get a draft! I can’t justify that amount of cash when there are other priorities, especially if we don’t get a badge we can associate with!