Prune, back in your box please. Everyone else back on topic.
Minor tangent, but parallel topic, if a cadet completes their NPPL/PPL, they are entitled to wear FS wings.
Yes
ACTO 34 Para 10
- Any cadet achieving a UK CAA or European JAA Private Pilots Licence (PPL), for example through sponsorship, or through private means, is entitled to wear the ACPS wings regardless of where the course was conducted.
In fact (weāve been here before) another ACTO states (canāt be bothered to look it up but a search on here should find it) - solo on light aircraft, not complete PPL or NPPL, required for FS wings. I confirmed that and issued them about 2 years ago. The PPL/NPPL thing is out of date.
[quote]I have looked through ACTO32 (Gliding Training) & cannot see any reference to ātransfer of experienceā from a civilian gliding club.
This is what is says concerning the Gliding Scholarship:
Those cadets who have achieved the required standard will be awarded blue wings and a certificate to show that they have successfully completed the course. Cadets showing the correct aptitude may be invited to continue to solo level. Cadets who complete a solo flight will be awarded silver wings and a certificate.
[/quote]
OK, so i have now carried out 40 launches with my civvie gliding club which is the number of launches on the Gliding Scholarship.
How do I prove I have āachieved the required standardā?
What is āthe required standardā?
I would love to be awarded my blue wings.
I would ask your Sqn Aerospace officer (or relevant person) to contact your Wg or Region Gliding Liaison Officer, they should be able to provide guidance.
Interesting to see this thread revived, because since I last posted, ACTO 32 has been revised. It now only allows the wearing of ACPS wings by those who have completed a non-ACO flying SCHOLARSHIP by open competition. Those who have self-funded (even by a Saturday/after school job, for example) donāt qualify. The scholarship doesnāt have to have been a complete licence or even to solo. And if they have completed a licence, they are then barred from applying for ACPS - catch-22ā¦
Iāve written to OC 2FTS about this, as it is manifestly aimed at preventing ārich kidsā from self-funding a PPL and wearing the ACPS wings; apparently, the badge now rewards successful scholarship applications not flying aptitude. And to think I was fooled into thinking this organisation was about flyingā¦
Nothing in there at all about gliding wings for non-ACO gliding, BTW, which was in fact why I was looking (one of my cadets is likely to solo this summer).
I would just let them wear the wings anyway. Who is going to know?
(Cue howls of derision for allowing common sense to prevail over ACO regs).
Does anybody know how many flying hours the 40 launches on the Gliding Scholarship equates to?
Iām hoping that if I do more than the average hours on a scholarship, i should have āachieved the required standardā.
Any cadets out there who did the scholarship remember how many hours they did?
Iām guessing that since you need to be 16 to go on the gliding scholarship, there canāt be many still in who did it.
[quote=ātmmorrisā post=25577]Interesting to see this thread revived, because since I last posted, ACTO 32 has been revised. It now only allows the wearing of ACPS wings by those who have completed a non-ACO flying SCHOLARSHIP by open competition. Those who have self-funded (even by a Saturday/after school job, for example) donāt qualify. The scholarship doesnāt have to have been a complete licence or even to solo. And if they have completed a licence, they are then barred from applying for ACPS - catch-22ā¦
Iāve written to OC 2FTS about this, as it is manifestly aimed at preventing ārich kidsā from self-funding a PPL and wearing the ACPS wings; apparently, the badge now rewards successful scholarship applications not flying aptitude. And to think I was fooled into thinking this organisation was about flyingā¦
Nothing in there at all about gliding wings for non-ACO gliding, BTW, which was in fact why I was looking (one of my cadets is likely to solo this summer).[/quote]
Sounds more like protecting crumbling empires than preventing ārich kidsā wearing a badge.
I know at least a dozen cadets who have done PPLs and the last thing you would describe them as is ārich kidsā, more like a lot of hard work and sacrifice. The irony is of course a PPL takes longer and requires more work than a scholarship.
Donāt worry weāve all been fooled into thinking this organisation has anything to do with flying.
[quote=āHarryā post=25599]Does anybody know how many flying hours the 40 launches on the Gliding Scholarship equates to?
Iām hoping that if I do more than the average hours on a scholarship, i should have āachieved the required standardā.
Any cadets out there who did the scholarship remember how many hours they did?
Iām guessing that since you need to be 16 to go on the gliding scholarship, there canāt be many still in who did it.[/quote]
i did 8hrs45 between Oct-Dec in a Vigilantā¦although it could be different for a Viking.
i understand the ālimitā/target hours is 8 which is only extended if deemed close enough to warrant further effort.
8 hours = 480 minutes
480 minutes / 40 launches = 12 minutes per flight
which isnāt infeasible as I understand from a winch launch flight (height of release and weather conditions dependant of course)
[quote=āsteve679ā post=25603][quote=āHarryā post=25599]Does anybody know how many flying hours the 40 launches on the Gliding Scholarship equates to?
Iām hoping that if I do more than the average hours on a scholarship, i should have āachieved the required standardā.
Any cadets out there who did the scholarship remember how many hours they did?
Iām guessing that since you need to be 16 to go on the gliding scholarship, there canāt be many still in who did it.[/quote]
i did 8hrs45 between Oct-Dec in a Vigilantā¦although it could be different for a Viking.
i understand the ālimitā/target hours is 8 which is only extended if deemed close enough to warrant further effort.
8 hours = 480 minutes
480 minutes / 40 launches = 12 minutes per flight
which isnāt infeasible as I understand from a winch launch flight (height of release and weather conditions dependant of course)[/quote]
There is no ātime limitā on a conventional GS the 40 launches are there to limit the number of stress cycles per GS. More so time is a dreadful indicator of having reached the mythical āstandardā to achieve the GS standard you would have to prove to the award authority (Sqn OC) that you were suitably competent.
There are times when you can do all the hours you want but never reach the standard. There is the possibility to complete the GS and receive no wings!
Iāve been following this thread with particular interest since the beginning. Well done Harry!
My son has been attending our local Sqn for three & half years, but so far the Sqn has not been offered a single gliding slot and air experience flights were also āprop lessā for much of that time. Having been co-opted onto the civilian committee, I naively decided that if we could just get some cadets airborne we might stop them from leaving, so I approached a local civilian gliding club. Would they be willing to give us special price on their group booking trial flight scheme for a bunch of cadets? The club could not have been more enthusiastic, great idea, and the Civ Com were up for funding it, but I had not bargained on the ACO. Amongst the many obstacles thrown up, the main show stopper seemed to be the fact that the club instructors were not CRB checked. My imagination fails me as to what danger the cadets might have been in from some one otherwise occupied in flying a glider for 10 or 20 minutes, but the whole scheme was a non starter.
The good news is that having made contact with the club, my own son has been a member for just over a year and went solo just a few weeks after his 15th birthday. Another 15 year old went solo just before him who had already given up on a nearby ATC Sqn, which has since closed. We now have another new young member from a third local Sqn, who is also very disillusioned with the ACO.
Is my son a rich kid? Well heās lucky to have a great gliding club on the door step with very generous cadet rates, it probably cost me less than it would to keep him in football gear if that was his chosen sport, and luckily there are grants available because I am not a particularly rich Dad.
Does he want to wear gliding wings on his uniform? Itās a nice idea, but heās really not particularly bothered. Heās a pilot and he knows it, and itās no particular thanks to the ACO.
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I think you are a little harsh towards the ACO. Red tape is a given these days and has its frustrations, but with things such as CRB/DBS checks they have to follow the rules, particularly operating outside the bounds of the services. Much as weād like life to be simpler, in todayās climate of perpetual suspicion and post regrettable incidents like Deepcut, we have no choice.
As an example, I was recently at an AEF who were short of a pilot for a morning slot. Despite being a regular, and far more Tutor current than any AEF pilot, I havenāt been DBS checked so couldnāt fly cadets.
Harsh or not, Civ Com Dad offers a view from the other side of the fence, that of the ācustomerā
as an organisation which āpromotes and encourages among young men and women a practical interest in aviationā with one platform for that getting the youth of today in the air the organisation IS failing its customers. that is without doubt.
regardless of the reasons, justified or otherwise, there is a shortfall in our core business.
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But the customer has to understand the problem. Sadly I think few outside the services realise the rigidity of the frameworks 2FTS and 3FTS operate under. I can entirely sympathise with the HQAC position too - imagine you go to XYZ flying or gliding club under the auspices of an ATC Sqn and there is an incident and in the subsequent investigation irregularities are discovered, of whatever kind (engineering - topical eh? Pilot qualification or currencyā¦ Weatherā¦ Supervisionā¦). Someone would be up in court in front of a jury.
Civcomdad has done a very good thing in taking his son privately, and Iām glad heās enjoying it. Sometimes things donāt work out and if a Sqn isnāt getting flying slots then thatās unfortunate (but in my own experience as a cadet in the late 1990s it wasnāt much better in terms of gliding!).
Chaz, I donāt mean to sound too harsh on this topic. Believe me I can be harsh about the ACO, and you should hear my wife if she catches sight of Air Cadet Magazine, but this is not the place for that. Iām in danger of being moderated as it is, please forgive the rant.
We all know that modern 'earth n safety and litigation culture is stifling, and it is pointless trying to fight it, but my impression as an outsider is that the ACO have gone overboard with it, and seem unable to make a considered judgement on anything not in the regulations.
The civilian gliding club I approached has a perfectly good child protection policy, regularly flys kids from 13 onwards and some instructors were willing to talk to ACO about the possibility of CRB checks if really necessary, but there appeared to be no way to push any of this upwards throughout the rank structure.
As I alluded to previously our allocated VGS had effectively ceased operation even prior to āthe pauseā and AEF were grounded, so what cadets the Sqn did have were grounded as well, and nearly all those over 16 left. With gentle encouragement from the Civ Com the CO contacted a neighbouring VGS to very politely enquire if there was a possibility of any spare slots during the summer holidays as had been offered in previous years. The resulting snotagram from something called a WIGLO effectively telling the CO to wind his neck in and follow proper procedures convinced me that there were much more exciting games being played at the higher levels of the organisation than the simple aim of inspiring young adults about aviation.
So our little Sqn struggles on with too few cadets and staff to organise anything much more than drill and aviation art, and the lack of activities does nothing to attract or keep new recruits. We very rarely get 6 cadets on parade, and my impression is that neighbouring Sqns are doing little better.
My son keeps going because his mate goes and the advantage of a tiny Sqn is that when we get AEF slots they can both nearly always get one, which money could not buy.
Of course there have to be rules and regulations, but a little bit of flexibility would not go amiss. If Harry wants to wear his blue gliding wings I hope that his CO makes a judgement call and just gives them to him if only for the initiative to get airborne by his own efforts, and if it inspires another cadet to do something similar so much the better.
[quote=āCiv Com Dadā post=25694]
We all know that modern 'earth n safety and litigation culture is stifling, and it is pointless trying to fight it, but my impression as an outsider is that the ACO have gone overboard with it, and seem unable to make a considered judgement on anything not in the regulationsā¦
ā¦Of course there have to be rules and regulations, but a little bit of flexibility would not go amiss. [/quote]
Sadly, where is comes to minors, or any trainees in fact, policy now appears (well, is) very rigid across the MoD. I think Iāve had to sign for 3 or 4 supervisory care directives this year alone! 
There is another slant on the glidingā¦ 2FTS being an MoD asset, if HQAC turn around and let units arrange their own civvy aviating, then it leaves the whole VGS (and later AEF) construct very much at the mercy of the beancounters - they will ask why they are needed (and see the Ā£Ā£Ā£ of estate). Short term pain over a few years to ensure long term survival of the activity. Post MAA itās something all areas of military aviation have had to deal with.
This is really really annoying.
I was looking through a copy of the Wattisham magazine last night. There was a bit in it about the army cadets at Wattisham.
They have been for a few trips in the search and rescue Sea King and they are also doing glider flying with the Anglia Gliding Club based on the airfield. :mad:
If you want to fly, it looks like you need to quit the AIR cadets and join the army cadets!!! :mad:
Oxon ACF has an ex-RAF officer as CEO and he arranges gliding for the Army Cadets, tooā¦
In a quick back-of-the-envelope calculation he worked out once that the UAS/AEF system costs around Ā£600 per hour to run. Itās massively inefficient - not least due to keeping dedicated maintenance teams on airfields, and even in some cases keeping airfields open purely for this (though I appreciate thatās stopped/stopping with the closure of Wyton and Church Fenton).
Even allowing for compliance procedures doubling the hourly rate, they could use civilian flying clubs for around half that and provide twice as many hours. The problem is the military blinkers which say that non-military flying instructors are worthless - yet the level of flying ātrainingā being provided is so basic that there is no effective differenceā¦
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