[quote=“Chief Tech” post=9625]
When they become a surgeon, do they change their signature block to say ‘Mr’ ?[/quote]
No, they’d have an “administrative assistant” to do any of that for them! 
Right so shall I use … (Just cause I can)
Captain Captain
Civilian Instructor
Training Officer
XXX (Anytown) Sqn
Captain should be a service helper, not a CI? Unless you’re retired, then
Captain J Smith (Ret’d)
Civilian Instructor
might be appropriate?
I think that captain in this case is a civilian title, not a military rank.
As in the person in charge of a boat (or an aircraft in VZ’s case)
But is that not like the Police Officer case I mentioned in the original post, where it’s a job title rather then a title bestowed upon you?
[quote=“chaz” post=9606][quote=“ccw34” post=9598]
(Background, I am one of those unusual Dr CIs, and my Sqn OC said I shouldn’t use Dr Smith in my email signature when dealing with Sqn matters, citing the case of senior Police Officers who are CIs not using their police ranks, and still being referred to as Mr / CI; the rebuttal to this is that if they were to leave the police, they would be referred to as Mr in their new civilian job, but my civilian title is Dr, which I can use, if I wish, in any job).[/quote]
Your rebuttal is correct, your Sqn OC is wrong, and, if they argue otherwise you could use the opportunity to explain how you earned the right to use the title, and how they are confusing a title with an organisation’s rank.
Is the Sqn Cdr green (with envy), or just ignorant?[/quote]
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[quote=“ccw34” post=9636]But is that not like the Police Officer case I mentioned in the original post, where it’s a job title rather then a title bestowed upon you?
[quote=“chaz” post=9606][quote=“ccw34” post=9598]
(Background, I am one of those unusual Dr CIs, and my Sqn OC said I shouldn’t use Dr Smith in my email signature when dealing with Sqn matters, citing the case of senior Police Officers who are CIs not using their police ranks, and still being referred to as Mr / CI; the rebuttal to this is that if they were to leave the police, they would be referred to as Mr in their new civilian job, but my civilian title is Dr, which I can use, if I wish, in any job).[/quote]
Your rebuttal is correct, your Sqn OC is wrong, and, if they argue otherwise you could use the opportunity to explain how you earned the right to use the title, and how they are confusing a title with an organisation’s rank.
Is the Sqn Cdr green (with envy), or just ignorant?[/quote][/quote]Depends - I’d assume that the police is a bit like the military, where your rank only really carries over if you’re over a certain rank.
(i.e. a Flt Lt’s civilian salutation will still be Mr/Ms/etc, whereas a Sqn Ldr can use Squadron Leader as their general title.)
In the case of civil captains I’m not entirely sure, but I do know that my great uncle used Captain as his (he could have used Gp Capt if he wanted to!)
So, to confuse matters:
CI is an appointment, not a rank.
But that doesn’t mean it can’t also be a title.
For example, the Regimental Sergeant Major of an infantry battalion will hold the rank of Warrant Officer Class 1 and the appointment of RSM. However, he would be ‘RSM Smith’ and officers would refer to him as ‘RSM’ or ‘Regimental Sergeant Major’ (or similar depending on Regimental tradition/custom).
As for the police stuff, if you’re no longer a warranted constable, you can’t represent yourself as one. So if you retire from the police as an Inspector you cease to be an Inspector and referring to yourself as ‘Inspector Smith’ would be impersonating a Police officer.
SNCOs(ATC) are appointed to a rank, rather than appointed to an appointment.
So, simple question:
Is there anywhere in ACPs/APc/JSPs/QRs which says whether CI should be used as a title, or is it only an appointment. This in essence is what I asked in my 1st paragraph of my original post, but the Mr/Dr/(envious / ignorant OC ← not my words if he reads this!) debate took over 
to throw a spanner in the works further, compliments
what is the appropriate method to address a Dr/Prof. or other? given they are not a Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss
somewhat off the direct question of a title block i confess but, does Cpl Jonees refer to Dr Smith, the Sqn Training Officer as “Sir/Ma’am” or “Doctor”
imagine the situation
Cpl Jones has reason to speak to the Training Officer, enters the office, is invited to join the trg officer at thier desk, engages in conversation as required
upon leaving Cpl Jones says "thank you "
should that be Sir/Ma’am or Doctor?
there are a selection of Doctors (GPs and Dentist) in our village, some retired others still practising, but are all known by the pre-fix “Dr” and i would probably compliment them as Doctor rather than Sir/Ma’am…is this perhaps a civilian thing, a Captain of a ship would be referred to as Captain, a Police Officer referred to a “Officer”/inspector/etc…
[quote=“steve679” post=9643]to throw a spanner in the works further, compliments
what is the appropriate method to address a Dr/Prof. or other? given they are not a Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss
somewhat off the direct question of a title block i confess but, does Cpl Jonees refer to Dr Smith, the Sqn Training Officer as “Sir/Ma’am” or “Doctor”[/quote]
Is the Dr Smith an officer, WO, NCO or a CI?
I’d go with that, if they are a CI, they are referred to in conversation as “Dr Smith”, in the same way that any other CI would be referred to as “Mr/Mrs/Miss Smith”* in conversation, but they are called Sir/Ma’am in direct address, as CIs normally are.
- Of course, this is only true if this is actually correct; I hear plenty of “Please can I speak to CI Smith” <- it whether this is correct which is what I am trying to get to the bottom of…!
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[quote=“incubus” post=9646][quote=“steve679” post=9643]to throw a spanner in the works further, compliments
what is the appropriate method to address a Dr/Prof. or other? given they are not a Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss
somewhat off the direct question of a title block i confess but, does Cpl Jonees refer to Dr Smith, the Sqn Training Officer as “Sir/Ma’am” or “Doctor”[/quote]
Is the Dr Smith an officer, WO, NCO or a CI?[/quote]
i refer back to ccw34’s position.
as the Sqn Training Officer a CI and Dr do his Cadets compliment him as Sir or Doctor
I recall meeting a VRT Wing Commander at a civilian organised conference. We had been provided with name badges, but I noted that he wasn’t wearing his. He introduced himself as “Wing Commander Bloggs”. I introduced myself and politely enquired of his name? He repeated “Wing Commander Bloggs”. So, after that I just called him “sport”.
exmpa
[quote=“steve679” post=9649][quote=“incubus” post=9646][quote=“steve679” post=9643]to throw a spanner in the works further, compliments
what is the appropriate method to address a Dr/Prof. or other? given they are not a Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss
somewhat off the direct question of a title block i confess but, does Cpl Jonees refer to Dr Smith, the Sqn Training Officer as “Sir/Ma’am” or “Doctor”[/quote]
Is the Dr Smith an officer, WO, NCO or a CI?[/quote]
i refer back to ccw34’s position.
as the Sqn Training Officer a CI and Dr do his Cadets compliment him as Sir or Doctor[/quote]
You’d call him ‘Sir’, because he’s a CI. You wouldn’t expect your cadets to call a CI ‘mister’.
I imagine that once, long ago, it would have been a case of ‘Mr Smith, who is a Civilian Instructor’, but ‘CI Smith’ is now prevalent and therefore, I’d say, not incorrect.
I think that, going back to the original question, the OP can call himself whatever he wants, be it: ‘Dr Smith, Civilian Instructor’, ‘CI Smith Phd’ or ‘Smith, Wise Man and Educator of Cadets, Training Officer, father to a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife and I will have vengeance!’
[quote=“tango_lima” post=9653][quote=“steve679” post=9649][quote=“incubus” post=9646][quote=“steve679” post=9643]to throw a spanner in the works further, compliments
what is the appropriate method to address a Dr/Prof. or other? given they are not a Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss
somewhat off the direct question of a title block i confess but, does Cpl Jonees refer to Dr Smith, the Sqn Training Officer as “Sir/Ma’am” or “Doctor”[/quote]
Is the Dr Smith an officer, WO, NCO or a CI?[/quote]
i refer back to ccw34’s position.
as the Sqn Training Officer a CI and Dr do his Cadets compliment him as Sir or Doctor[/quote]
You’d call him ‘Sir’, because he’s a CI. You wouldn’t expect your cadets to call a CI ‘mister’.
I imagine that once, long ago, it would have been a case of ‘Mr Smith, who is a Civilian Instructor’, but ‘CI Smith’ is now prevalent and therefore, I’d say, not incorrect.
I think that, going back to the original question, the OP can call himself whatever he wants, be it: ‘Dr Smith, Civilian Instructor’, ‘CI Smith Phd’ or ‘Smith, Wise Man and Educator of Cadets, Training Officer, father to a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife and I will have vengeance!’[/quote]
I don’t think it’s that simple. Mister is an honorific but not a term of reference. So you would refer to someone as Mr Smith, but not call them Mister. Doctor is both a term of reference AND an honorific. So, you could use it as both. (Personally, I think it’s similar to Miss, which is also both an honorific and a term of reference. For instance, female barristers are almost always referred to as ‘miss’ in the same way as female teachers.)
Perhaps the distinction lies in the origins of the title. For instance with CFAVs, the organisation confers upon us either a title or rank, so that should be used. Whereas CIs are not explicitly given a title or term of reference, so they are free to use the titles they own personally. Such as Doctor or Professor. Which is their personal preference. This also explains why titles conferred by other organisations are not used, such as Police ranks.
This may not be as academic a problem as it appears. I imagine there are many padres in the ACO who hold doctorates in theology. But their conferred title is padre, so that is more appropriate.
the use of a the school example is a good one, i remember my teachers being Mr or Mrs and a small selection Dr, and were either referred to as Sir, Miss or Doctor as appropriate
Another example would be a Female who held a knighted, they are to be called Dame and not Ma’am.
They are awarded a knighthood for their achievements, as a Doctorate is awarded for achievement.
The strange thing with knighthoods is that protocol dictates they are Sir|Dame Christian Name; it would be strange for a cadet to say “Please can I see Sir John” instead of “Please can I see Mr Smith”
Well we can all test that one out with Gp Capt Sir Chris Hoy .
That one is easy! :evil:
‘I want to see the boss…’, ‘Anyone know where the boss is…’ ‘Mate have you seen the boss?’ etc
:lol: