In certain situations yes. But it’s not a de facto ‘device rifle = permission to wear PCS’.
The dumbest take I saw was CIs must wear No.3 when doing SAAI instruction. But had to change at lunch to go in the mess.
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Wouldn’t it make sense to eliminate those situations and the contradictions @Baldrick brings up with Mess rules, etc. — and enable @AlexCorbin to have a single set of uniform regulations in one ACP — by simply having uniformed staff teaching SAA, running LFMT, etc?
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What I should have said was “In my opinion, the short answer is no…”. The original post was asking for our thoughts on wearing of MTP by CIs on a course or camp. My opinion still stands. CIs, in my opinion, are the lifeblood of our organisation but this is the option for those that don’t have uniform.
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Wash your mouth out! 
RAFAC is very lucky to have numerous CIs who specialise in a wide range of activities. Even if 50% gave up RAFAC if they were told that they had to go into uniform, wallop.
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I seriously question the motivation of someone in a uniformed youth organisation who would leave if they had to wear the uniform.
Why don’t the Army Cadets have this problem, or the Scouts for that matter?
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This is my mind set too
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They do - it’s why they are struggling on numbers.
Scouts don’t wear a uniform & are doing quite well.
At the risk of thread drift
ACF - a very small number of volunteers are Civilian Assistants and have a more limited role than our CIs. The few I have come across seem to be largely, retired uniformed volunteers who proved as hoc support.
The entry rank is usually PI and that is uniformed.
Scouts - the initial ‘rank’ in Scouts was Section Assistant (they have changed their volunteer titles quite recently). SAs are permitted but not obliged to wear uniform. Assistant Scout Leaders (next rank up in the old system) had to wear uniform.
Made rather more confusing by Scouts also having both Occasional Helpers (non uniform) and Parent Helpers (likewise) as well as various types of Young Leaders, also not usually wearing uniform. YLs who were Explorer Scouts would usually wear civvies with their Explorer necker.
Depends very much on the local group. Usually shirt & necker for Scouts (with jeans or outdoor trousers), leaders the same, but RN Sea Scouts and Air Scouts much more in ‘full’ uniform.
Post 14 Explorers not so much, see my other post.
Having parent helpers would be incredibly useful if we could make that work. Parents are quite happy to spend a day helping you keep the doors open in other organisations when their kid will profit directly. It could help fantastically with reducing some pressure on core volunteers.
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Various valid reasons, off the top of my head:
- Retired uniformed staff, especially ones who were not renewed so cannot go into uniform.
- Staff who cannot guarantee the minimum hours for legitimate reasons, such as work, family etc
- Staff who are content turning up and doing one thing, well, but don’t have the time or inclination to become generalist staff, which you’re forced to do as a Sgt or Officer. (Especially if they are perhaps physically limited from doing so due to a disability or similar.)
I myself was tempted at one point to remain in RAFAC books as a CI and perhaps help my unit with my AT quals, but that canoe has sailed.
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I’d actually prefer that my CIs wore their issued corporate clothing, or smart casual. Unless there’s a specific reason not to, like AT.
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It would, but it is quite tough to administer.
We had a parent rep on the committee who looked after it, as it was done on a rota rather than just asking a few parents to help out.
You still got parents refuse or worse still not show up.
I’m happy sticking out, can’t be doing with having to pay for greens I would rarely wear.
If not for me, we wouldn’t be able to parade as often as we do. And I do more hours and nights than our uniformed staff.
The power of having CIs in the organisation is the flexibility it offers volunteers. The more we restrict that flexibility, the more the organisation misses out on, one way or another.
Being able to give as little or as much time as you like, and being able to be a specialist or a generalist are massive strengths, and we’d be shooting ourselves in the foot taking any of that away.
We can’t afford to devalue the role CIs have in our organisation. The value a volunteer brings is not limited by their willingness or not to wear a uniform.
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As a uniformed officer, I can understand it. Our processes to go into uniform are so long, unwieldy, and sometimes intrusive, such as the requirements for SC background checks. It’s a lot to do just to volunteer your time.
Plus, at least locally, wing staff see uniformed pers as “fair game” for dropping responsibility on, or at the least putting heaps of pressure on officers/SNCO to take up certain roles “in the interest of the corps”. I can get why people might want to avoid that pressure.
If we relaxed the rules for going into uniform, especially at SNCO level - maybe even bring in the dreaded Adult Cpl rank - then we might be able to shift more towards uniform. At the present rate locally it’s taking nearly a year to get new officers through the pipeline, I don’t blame people for not wanting to bother.
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This is exactly what I advocate for.
We need a uniformed tier that is perceived the same as being a CI, but in uniform.
As I’ve already said, the commitment element really doesn’t matter. Cis give far more than they “need” to, but that’s the indicator that we’re doing something wrong in my opinion. Civilian Instructors shouldn’t actually be the lifeblood of our uniformed organisation.
Bringing in the junior ranks for staff (and then bumping everyone to probationary sergeant if they support an annual camp where accommodation and messing is required) would allow more people to make that jump without as much expectation (and then we could hopefully save on interviewing too, because they’re not coming in as sgts with the expectations that go with that).
I’ve never understood the need to bring them in as sgts. We don’t do that with our reservists…
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I wish I could actually get some more. I have one polo shirt that’s about 8 years old!
I just don’t understand how vehemently some argue for getting rid of a non-uniform tier of the organisation. A tier that has been there since the ATC was founded, has served us brilliantly and been a position for people to serve from for various reasons as already mentioned.
I don’t thinnk that we need an additional tier of uniform, just for the path into the current system to be better administered.
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