In this case the Cadet NCO’s appear to be well over the line, however as has been said they may well be new to the role and learning themselves. This sort of thing SHOULD be solved with a bit of verbal guidance,all recorded so that if it continues more serious action can be taken.
Something to take into account when looking at the speed these sort of things get dealt with is that the Adult Staff are still volunteers and although as a parent this is the most important thing going on for you at the moment (and rightly so). For the volunteer who is doing 3 jobs at the Squadron as well as teaching, having a partner, kids and a real job that pays the bills they may have to prioritise what they are dealing with on any particular night. (You would hope this comes at or near the top but there may be other things going on, although if that was the case I would expect at least a courtesy message of “we are looking into it please bare with us”).
The points in the second paragraph aren’t even recognised by some Sqn Cdrs (of the other staff on the squadron) and Wing Staff and they are volunteers themselves, so expecting a parent to understand the situation all / many of us find ourselves in from time to time, is stretching it a bit.
You don’t want to make excuses for people, but like every one of us, not many really know what we are going through outside the Corps and how it affects us mentally and emotionally, which impacts what we might be doing in the Corps. Mind you we can always go NEP, which is the solution to everything. You have to wonder if all staff took NEP (rather than just keep going) when life hits a ‘rough patch’ how many actual ‘active’ staff there would be at any one point.
However this situation is one that could have been sorted in one or maybe two parade nights.
We have, unfortunately (although probably inevitably), had to deal with issues relating to bullying and other serious allegations on the Sqn. For us (as far as the OC and Sqn NCO are concerned during parade hours), the world has mostly stopped beyond the minimum amount of admin in order to deal with them.
We aren’t overflowing with staff, but that’s the way it should be - for the benefit of all involved and to prevent any further incidents or anybody leaving prematurely with a marred memory of their time with us.
Also, for this to be a problem with a CWO… outrageous that they’ve been allowed to progress that far uncorrected with such an attitude.
It fits in quite well with my opinion and experience with CWOs. Bad attitudes, chip on their shoulder, holier than thou attitude. Sooner they get rid of that pointless rank the better.
I have only met 2 decent ones. And they were good eggs regardless of rank.
I’ve seen a few good CWOs but I have also seen bad ones and even more ineffecual ones.
Yes, it is all about the person behind that rank. I have no issue with the rank itself but the criteria used to justify it needs a lot of work. As a reward for the real shining stars it is still worthwhile but only remains worthwhile if you don’t hand it out as a pity prize for simply being older than the other cadets.
I don’t think CWOs are any more bullies than any other cadet NCO and actually no more bullies than cadet NCOs ever were.
I think however the problem stems from the Adult WOs, some of who have no idea how to speak to youngsters as they seem to think they are in the RAF and need to be total sphincters, and seem to take their role model as being a cross between Sgt Major Williams / Gunnery Sgt Hartman. Cadet NCOs see this sort of idiot and emulate them. I told our then WSO that I never wanted to see a sector WO on my squadron again, as their attitude was appalling and had no place in the Corps.
The problem with CWO is that since 2003 is that it has lost its inherent seniority / experience, as the upper age dropped to 20.
CWOs were always cadets who had a lot more experience, knowledge and ability and with the upper age at 22nd birthday there was also the age gap, which meant an emotional distance from the other cadets. Since the upper age dropped, CWOs do not have these factors, which affects them IMO in how and what they do.
I’m not sure it’s a ‘pity promotion’ it’s a complete the tick box exercise. There does seem to be a trend towards 19 year olds getting put forward for CWO because they are 19, to ‘encourage’ them to not leave. I’ve had a couple of 19 year olds come to me asking to be promoted to CWO as their mates were getting promoted and told them, no, basically as I’m not sure what difference I would see in them in the 2-3 months they would have the rank . I’ve seen youngsters with Crown and Laurels who wouldn’t have got close to it years ago.
I thought we should have lost CWO and reduced the maximum cadet age to 18, on 30 Sep 2003 when the LASER Review came into effect.
Hmmmm. Personally I think there is a place for CWOs but they need to be far more than a fully-badged-up FS to make the cut. The CWO is the interface and this needs maturity, balance and presence rather than volume; cpls shout, SNCOs scare and CWOs convince. Sometimes this comes as a bit of a shock for the more ebullient FS who seems to think it is their right to be promoted to CWO on their 18th birthday.
My experience of RAF SNCOs is that they are far more balanced, astute and managerial than some of the RAFAC SNCOs I see. Fortunately, in my Sqn the adult SNCOs earn respect of the cdts.
PS. Sector/Wg WOs with sticks do my head in, especially when they start hunting in packs.
As for ATC SNCOs vs RAF SNCOs, I would agree. But it is a chalk and cheese comparison.
SNCOs in the RAF/forces are trained professionals doing a job for a number of years and have accrued the experience etc to be seen as worthy of the rank. I tend to see WOs in the forces on a par with senior officers in terms of running things. Nearly everyone I know who has been in the forces has said the “WO” knew more about how things worked etc in the job than the Officers and were good at helping and giving advice and effectively ‘trained’ the junior officers on the job. How I wish it was like that in the ATC.
The ATC by comparison we have this boot camp mindset and as such the organisation will continue like a permanent 1950s conscription basic training unit. As such the ATC is stuck in a mobius loop.
I ensure that all of our staff are engaged in the squadron and when I’ve had more than one SNCO they all do a bit of everything. I used to have WO who would do little more than drill/discip and stores and hated it when I told him he was teaching classifications and that he would be taking over DofE and gave the stores to a CI to run.
Not all WO’s are drill pigs that cant do anything else - I was a DI and an Arms DI, but I ran a sqn for a while, started a DF and took that to Sqn. Still did my WO bit and parades and drill courses etc, etc. Taught lessons (except POF)…
The expectation however is that they are “drill pigs”, due to the childlike mentality that exists in the ATC and seems to be supported at the top of the tree, that then permeates its way down. I’ve known WOs who have had no real interest in drill/discip and have been rounded on.
Want to instruct be a CI, do drill/discip be a SNCO, be more “managerial” be an Officer. When there are very many CIs and SNCOs out there who are more than able to run squadrons, but we have to have an Officer doing that.
The expectation yes, reality like everything else in the RAFAC is varies from Reg to Reg, Wing to Wing and Unit to Unit. Also there are plenty of SNCO’s/WO’s running DF’s and Sqn’s along with authorisation to attend SCC at ATF.
Not me ive never been a drill pig ever.This goes back to my service days.I was a tradesman first if I had to do drill I did it (AOC Guard that sort of thing).However most of the time we just got on with our jobs.Obviously you never crossed swords with the SWO coz you d lose .Ive always held the view that as an WO in the corps/RAFAC/ACO im not and never will be the equivalent of a regular.I know how long it takes to get to that rank and the privilege it is to hold it.It takes years of very good F6442S and courses and crucially trade experience.I worked under a lot of very good WO/SNCOs in my time and they taught me a lot about man management and people skills.I just hope I can be as good as they were in my cadet service.
If you’ve managed to by-pass the expectation brilliant and that has to be good for the cadets you come into contact with and hopefully able to give staff a more rounded perspective of their role etc.
This then transcends into dealing with problems that arise, like cadets getting a bit too excited and upsetting others, by thinking they need to talk and act in a way that they don’t need to.
I was a WO over 20 years ago and it wasn’t like it is today. I remember it as being a lot calmer and more civilised. Cadets were cadets and spoke to each other like they always did and continue to.
I wonder if the problems didn’t come to the fore when adult sergeants were introduced. Since this time more cadets became adult SNCOs at 20 (there weren’t very many old style AWOs under 25, many Wings had an unofficial age bar) from being a cadet and didn’t have the time to learn how to deal with things in an adult manner and their behaviours and ways they dealt with things as cadets persisted and has continued to translate to cadets today.
Interesting point.When I was appointed back in the day the unofficial policy was they only appointed people to the rank who were preferably ex service and over 30.
While not expressly ex-service and not official our AWOs had to be in the late 20s and attended at least 2 camps, which was used to assess their behaviour in the Sgts Mess.
Saw a few very young Warrant Officers on my course back in 95.There were also a few ex service like myself and one guy who d only been out the mob about a year.It was a good course though and we all helped each other as for some the daily drill was a bit of a culture shock.