They can drink before the cadets arrive or once they have left.
I happen to think all staff should stay dry for the duration of the camp.
[quote=“Sikhing_Answers” post=16934][quote=“cygnus maximus” post=6075]
a Camp Commandant should stay dry for the whole of the Camp.
[/quote]
You have got to be joking! An individual gives up there own time (probably for a bit longer than the rest of the camp staff), put their families and jobs on hold for the duration of the camp, and take on the highest responsibility of any staff member at said camp, and you begrudge them having drink now and then?
I am speechless with disbelief![/quote]
Have you actually read my earlier posts regarding this matter? If you had, you will note that I said Camps were an ideal opportunity for adult staff to experience their respective Messes and enjoy their facilities. What grips me is when people cannot regulate their alcohol intake to the extent that they are unfit for duty or inappropriate in their behaviour, as I have seen on several occasions during my association with the ACO.
Someone has to be in overall control, even if there is a duty staff member; the duty person may well be a WO/NCO or a CI and therefore, worst case, not placed to exercise full control of the whole staff cadre - ‘regulate the excesses of the officer corps’! Ultimately, as the senior person on the Camp, the buck stops with the Camp Commandant and as I said, if something serious happened, they would undoubtedly be required to be involved and it would not look good if they had been drinking, even a small amount.
So what if someone has given up his or her own time? So what if they have put their families and jobs on hold for the duration of the Camp? In all likelihood, they volunteer to be Camp Commandant and therefore they knowingly take on the highest responsibility of any staff member at Camp. As such, they have certain responsibilities above and beyond their fellow staff members.
I find I function a bit better after a couple of cheeky scoops in the mess bar. Crack on I say.
[quote=“cygnus maximus” post=16942]Have you actually read my earlier posts regarding this matter? If you had, you will note that I said Camps were an ideal opportunity for adult staff to experience their respective Messes and enjoy their facilities. What grips me is when people cannot regulate their alcohol intake to the extent that they are unfit for duty or inappropriate in their behaviour, as I have seen on several occasions during my association with the ACO.
Someone has to be in overall control, even if there is a duty staff member; the duty person may well be a WO/NCO or a CI and therefore, worst case, not placed to exercise full control of the whole staff cadre - ‘regulate the excesses of the officer corps’! Ultimately, as the senior person on the Camp, the buck stops with the Camp Commandant and as I said, if something serious happened, they would undoubtedly be required to be involved and it would not look good if they had been drinking, even a small amount.
So what if someone has given up his or her own time? So what if they have put their families and jobs on hold for the duration of the Camp? In all likelihood, they volunteer to be Camp Commandant and therefore they knowingly take on the highest responsibility of any staff member at Camp. As such, they have certain responsibilities above and beyond their fellow staff members.[/quote]
If a duty officer or NCO isnt capable of watching over 30 cadets who more likely than not will be in their accomodation/naafi area without someone being there to hold their hand then theyre not really worthy of wearing the uniform.
What do you think Stations Commanders do? Stay stone cold sober 100% or trust the Duty Orderly Officer to do their job?
We’re not talking here about staff tying it on like theyre on the beach on Ibiza, but having a couple of sociable beers after a long days work. What actually is wrong with that? Its not being three sheets to the wind, its not turning up the next day unfit for duty. Off Duty = Off Duty.
Now if people DO turn up for duty the next day and are unfit through drink, then it should be dealt with… (and by this I mean ALL levels of staff - far too easy to tear up the young staff and turn a blind eye to the oldies!).
Your approach is effectively little more than “punish the majority for the defaulting minority”. Isnt there something in the regs that says that baad m’kay?
Abstaining from drinking alcohol for a whole week is a “punishment”, is it?
Why then do we punish the 18 year old cadets who are with us? SSOs generally forbid all cadets from drinking.
[quote=“cygnus maximus” post=16942][quote=“Sikhing_Answers” post=16934][quote=“cygnus maximus” post=6075]
a Camp Commandant should stay dry for the whole of the Camp.
[/quote]
You have got to be joking! An individual gives up there own time (probably for a bit longer than the rest of the camp staff), put their families and jobs on hold for the duration of the camp, and take on the highest responsibility of any staff member at said camp, and you begrudge them having drink now and then?
I am speechless with disbelief![/quote]
Have you actually read my earlier posts regarding this matter? If you had, you will note that I said Camps were an ideal opportunity for adult staff to experience their respective Messes and enjoy their facilities. What grips me is when people cannot regulate their alcohol intake to the extent that they are unfit for duty or inappropriate in their behaviour, as I have seen on several occasions during my association with the ACO.
Someone has to be in overall control, even if there is a duty staff member; the duty person may well be a WO/NCO or a CI and therefore, worst case, not placed to exercise full control of the whole staff cadre - ‘regulate the excesses of the officer corps’! Ultimately, as the senior person on the Camp, the buck stops with the Camp Commandant and as I said, if something serious happened, they would undoubtedly be required to be involved and it would not look good if they had been drinking, even a small amount.
So what if someone has given up his or her own time? So what if they have put their families and jobs on hold for the duration of the Camp? In all likelihood, they volunteer to be Camp Commandant and therefore they knowingly take on the highest responsibility of any staff member at Camp. As such, they have certain responsibilities above and beyond their fellow staff members.[/quote]
Yes, I did read every word you wrote, every single one in fact!
These are your exact words, " a Camp Commandant should stay dry for the whole of the Camp". Pretty to the point wouldn’t you say? These are your views, they do not mirror any rules that I’ve ever seen or heard of. Whether you are Camp Com, or Joe Blogs, getting legless is one thing, enjoying a social drink with colleagues after a hard day’s work is a very different thing.
And as for this comment:
“So what if someone has given up his or her own time? So what if they have put their families and jobs on hold for the duration of the Camp?”
Doesn’t this attitude just typify all that is wrong with the ACO as far as respect for staff is concerned? And you wonder why people are walking away in droves?
Cygnus Maximus? Maybe Ringpiece Maximus would be a better name?
As a slight aside, but has a relevance to this point, I don’t know if people have seen P letter 14-01 of this year? I only just noticed it, so I might be behind the times!
https://sharepoint.bader.mod.uk/QM/P%20Letters/P%20Letter%2014-01.pdf
Drug & Alcohol testing.
[quote=“incubus” post=16953]Abstaining from drinking alcohol for a whole week is a “punishment”, is it?
Why then do we punish the 18 year old cadets who are with us? SSOs generally forbid all cadets from drinking.[/quote]
Abstaining is a personal choice… being TOLD to abstain is out wrong and yes I would consider it as a collective punishment.
As for 18 year olds… Someone will come along with the P letter in a minute… But my view is (in appropriate circumstances) that there is no problem with 18 year olds having a sherbert… But we are limited to Station SOs which as you say, may well say cadets cant drink anyway even if legal.
But this isnt about cadets, its about staff/camp coms.
[quote=“redowling” post=16958][quote=“Perry Mason” post=16950]
Now if people DO turn up for duty the next day and are unfit through drink, then it should be dealt with… (and by this I mean ALL levels of staff - far too easy to tear up the young staff and turn a blind eye to the oldies!).
[/quote]
As a slight aside, but has a relevance to this point, I don’t know if people have seen P letter 14-01 of this year? I only just noticed it, so I might be behind the times!
https://sharepoint.bader.mod.uk/QM/P%20Letters/P%20Letter%2014-01.pdf
Drug & Alcohol testing.[/quote]
Interesting (and quite right too!) It is the first time I’ve seen it though.
Take note of the lower limit applying to being “crew on an aircraft” and anything involving firearms.
- Edited to add. Although the position with VR(T) is clear… I am less certain that this can be applied as easily to other CFAVs who are not subject to military law (in so far as requiring a breath test for example). If they are not in breach or potentially in breach of any civilian law I doubt there is much that could be done other than removing them from duty, and follow up administrative action…
I think I’ve said before in a different thread that as a schoolmaster in a boarding school I take a different view than I think you might in a purely voluntary environment. Working in a boarding school there is no expectation that all staff must be completely free from alcohol at all times - we live as well as work here, and you’d essentially be saying we couldn’t drink at all in term time, which is an unrealistic expectation and likely to result in surreptitious drinking instead. As Camp Comdt I would apply the same on camp: only the CDO should remain entirely sober at all times; all other staff including the CC are free to have a drink ‘after work’ after the evening’s cadet activities they are involved with have finished. I say ‘they are involved with’ as, for example, if the cadets go swimming in the evening supervised by the CDO and PTIs, and other staff aren’t required, they should be free to go, but staff shouldn’t e.g. drink with dinner then go back to an activity.
If they can’t do this and be sober in the morning they should be RTUd anyway.
I’ve only once had to remind an officer on a camp of the ‘no drinking on duty’ rule, on the first camp we were on together, and he remains a firm friend today having taken the reminder in the spirit it was intended.
[quote=“Sikhing_Answers” post=16954]Yes, I did read every word you wrote, every single one in fact!
These are your exact words, " a Camp Commandant should stay dry for the whole of the Camp". Pretty to the point wouldn’t you say? These are your views, they do not mirror any rules that I’ve ever seen or heard of. Whether you are Camp Com, or Joe Blogs, getting legless is one thing, enjoying a social drink with colleagues after a hard day’s work is a very different thing.
And as for this comment:
“So what if someone has given up his or her own time? So what if they have put their families and jobs on hold for the duration of the Camp?”
Doesn’t this attitude just typify all that is wrong with the ACO as far as respect for staff is concerned? And you wonder why people are walking away in droves?
Cygnus Maximus? Maybe Ringpiece Maximus would be a better name?[/quote]
Oh dear, it really is a shame when some people cannot understand the content and context of a civilised discussion and resort to denigrating, cretinous comments in an attempt to reinforce their arguments.
To be clear, my comments are clearly NOT rules that you will find articulated anywhere for the direction of CCs, I never said that they were; but they are exactly as you said, my views, my rules, for my use and are based on my experience. As far as I am aware, the purpose of this site is to exchange views and discuss topics relevant to the ACO; my view is that the CC should (with should being used as imparting advice or suggestion) remain dry during Camp for the reason that as the senior person on the Camp, the CC retains ultimate responsibility for what goes on and may need to become involved in issues regardless of whether there is a duty officer appointed. Indeed, this view is supported and even taken further by other contributors.
You also, crucially, missed out the statement which followed my ‘So what if someone has given up his or her own time? So what if they have put their families and jobs on hold for the duration of the Camp?’ and this statement was that in all likelihood, they VOLUNTEER to be CC and therefore KNOWINGLY accept everything that comes with that appointment - which I think puts my ‘So whats’ in context. You can’t volunteer for something and then cry foul or complain when you don’t like what you get, this is especially so for CCs as by the ACP, they will not be first-timers at Camp and they should therefore know pretty well what they’re going to be faced with.
To correct your final point, I have the utmost respect and admiration for the adult staff who happily give up their time to make a difference to our young men and women; but I have very little for those people who crave RAF commissioned or non-commissioned status and then whinge when they have to take on things that they don’t like, such as responsibility, service and leadership.
Cygnus Maximus, I understand your words, I just don’t agree with them and nor do many others going by the comments here. From what I can see most people are saying a little drink or two is fine, even for the CC provided it is done responsibly and there are other staff on call should a problem occur.
Well, we agree on something!
If people took the time to read what I said from the outset in this thread it was that I actually encourage people to use their respective messes when at camps or other visits to Stns. They are great places and should be used to enhance the appreciation of the Service, encourage the Service ethos within the Corps and yes, wind down where necessary; there is absolutely nothing wrong with people drinking in moderation. That’s pretty much what the majority of contributors to this thread have said too. My comment that seems to have aggrieved some is that the CC should not drink. Let’s get this straight please, that is MY opinion, based on the experience of more than once having seen the senior supervising officer incapable of decision making until after midday and witnessing inappropriate behaviour being unchecked by a CC. Some people agree with my opinion, but if they don’t, that’s fine by me as that’s the whole point of this forum.
[quote=“Perry Mason”]
If a duty officer or NCO isn’t capable of watching over 30 cadets who more likely than not will be in their accommodation/naafi area without someone being there to hold their hand then they’re not really worthy of wearing the uniform.
What do you think Stations Commanders do? Stay stone cold sober 100% or trust the Duty Orderly Officer to do their job?
We’re not talking here about staff tying it on like there on the beach on Ibiza, but having a couple of sociable beers after a long days work. What actually is wrong with that? It’s not being three sheets to the wind, its not turning up the next day unfit for duty. Off Duty = Off Duty.
Now if people DO turn up for duty the next day and are unfit through drink, then it should be dealt with… (and by this I mean ALL levels of staff - far too easy to tear up the young staff and turn a blind eye to the oldies!).
Your approach is effectively little more than “punish the majority for the defaulting minority”. Isn’t there something in the regs that says that baad m’kay?[/quote]
I think you’re missing my point Perry, particularly regarding ‘punishing the majority’. I’m not advocating that Camps should be dry for everyone, far from it. If you see my earlier comments, I am a big supporter of Messes and ACO staff should make every effort to experience them, and I fully agree that a wind-down drink is absolutely acceptable. However, having seen a range of adult staff, from CIs through to senior supervising officers, unfit for duty through alcohol, I personally choose not to drink when I am in that role.
I also think that your comparison with a Stn Cdr is a little misleading. Certainly, a Stn Cdr has far more responsibility regarding personnel numbers and equipment value than we ever will, but they also have a far larger supporting staff team on duty including a Duty Executive Officer and several experienced and knowledgeable subject matter experts. Moreover, they will not be dealing with child welfare and protection issues the likes of which could easily result in irate parents or adverse media attention. However, I think you can guarantee though that if something really serious hit the fan, the Stn Cdr would be ‘consulted’ regardless of his sobriety.
I’ve got to admit by the time we’ve finished faffing around with cadets, had a shower and got into the bar it’s 2100-2130, anymore than a couple before bed is pure luxury. If I’m honest the last 4 camps I’ve been on the only nights staff have got into their respective bars with any certainty is Sat, Sun and Fri, mainly due to a lack of staff. Even then the notion of getting trollied like some teenager, CC or not, is not an idea that fills me with glee.
I have noticed that messes in general, unless you’re on a flying station, are pretty much dead of an evening and unlike my earliest camps, when the bar was open until the last man left, it’s bar closed at 2300. I can’t remember how much was sorted out for cadets over a beer, but now there’s hardly anyone to chat to, other than ourselves.
You can blame PAYD for that!
PAYD has revolutionised catering in the armed forces.
It certainly has. For the worse.
Save as you Starve!
Gone are the days when you could stay in the bar as late as you wanted, and then get up and have 4 sausages, 3 rashers of bacon, and a pile of everything else for breakie… 